Confused by Downlight IC rating vs Installation Instructions

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Paul1977

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#244990 13-Jan-2019 11:03

I have some Philips Hue Aphelion downlights that I am now unsure if I can install because of where my ceiling joists are.

The placement of the lights would be OK if I can have a couple of them butted right up against the side of a timber joist, but I am confused if it is safe to do this.

They are IC rated (abutted and covered), which I thought meant this would be alright - but in the installation instructions there is a diagram saying you need a certain amount of clearance. Isn't this contradictory?

The actual install would be done by an electrician, but since my ceiling is lath and plaster I'll likely have to pre-cut the holes myself. However, unless they can be butted up against a joist then I'll need to return them as I won't be able to put them in a suitable position - so I need to know before I do any cutting into the ceiling.

If any sparkies on the forum could clarify this for me would be great.

Thanks

EDIT: I'm talking about having the spring clips running parallel to the joist so the the downlight housing itself is against the joist.

EDIT 2: Medium/long term we will be having the old lath and plaster ceiling batoned and jibbed over at which point we'll be able to plan it to have the downlights exactly where we want - but that is a minimum of 6 months away and ideally we would like to have the lights installed sooner.

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#2160090 13-Jan-2019 12:16

Basically the electricity act requires that manufactures instructions should be followed when installed, when your electrician issues the COC check to see if the manufactures instructions box is ticked.

Your electrician can choose to ignore the manufactures instructions and install them against the joist, but should there be any issues then they will be the one held legally responsible.

richms

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#2160092 13-Jan-2019 12:20

Where does it say it cant be against a joist? That image is just showing the minimum cavity size it can go into?

Richard rich.ms

Paul1977

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#2160106 13-Jan-2019 12:32

richms:

Where does it say it cant be against a joist? That image is just showing the minimum cavity size it can go into?

I assumed it was a clearance thing, rather than the overall cavity size - but I don't actually know.

It don't understand how it can specify minimum clearances, but also say it is fine to abut and cover with insulation?

sscribenz

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#2160178 13-Jan-2019 14:15

The IC rating, covered and abutted, refers to the ceiling insulation.

gregmcc

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#2160244 13-Jan-2019 15:21

Paul1977:

richms:

Where does it say it cant be against a joist? That image is just showing the minimum cavity size it can go into?

I assumed it was a clearance thing, rather than the overall cavity size - but I don't actually know.

It don't understand how it can specify minimum clearances, but also say it is fine to abut and cover with insulation?

The light diameter is 125mm the diagram clearly shows a 300mm diameter clearance, this means at least a 87.5mm clearance from the side of the light to timber.

Hammerer

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#2160257 13-Jan-2019 15:42

gregmcc:

The light diameter is 125mm the diagram clearly shows a 300mm diameter clearance, this means at least a 87.5mm clearance from the side of the light to timber.

I agree with @richms because the diagram is not that descriptive: there's no centre line or centre mark; there's no minimum clearance measurement; and either of these would be expected if the hole had to be centered in the space particular for a fitting of known diameter.

gregmcc

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#2160260 13-Jan-2019 15:52

Hammerer:

gregmcc:

The light diameter is 125mm the diagram clearly shows a 300mm diameter clearance, this means at least a 87.5mm clearance from the side of the light to timber.

I agree with @richms because the diagram is not that descriptive: there's no centre line or centre mark; there's no minimum clearance measurement; and either of these would be expected if the hole had to be centered in the space particular for a fitting of known diameter.

It's a pretty simple diagram, with very specific minimum dimensions "Min:300mm", you don't have to think too hard, and it obvious that the light is centered and many years of exp. in the trade tells me that the driver built in to the light fitting does get warm and you do not put it right next to timber.

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sparkz25

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#2160263 13-Jan-2019 16:13

If is was me I would need to have a look at the installation.

But It's all up to your sparky if he wants to install them, so it might pay to get him to have a look.

Im guessing these are leds? is so they would generate a lot less heat than a halogen which should never be installed to celing batten or within 100mm of it.

NZECP54 is what you need to read.

This has all the clearences and stuff that you need to know, but when we were doing installs and prewires and had no celings in we would put them where it looked best and with plenty of clearance from battens.

https://worksafe.govt.nz/dmsdocument/1583-new-zealand-electrical-code-of-practice-for-the-installation-of-recessed-luminaires-and-auxiliary-equipment-nzecp-54-2001

gregmcc

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#2160363 13-Jan-2019 16:44

sparkz25:

If is was me I would need to have a look at the installation.

But It's all up to your sparky if he wants to install them, so it might pay to get him to have a look.

Im guessing these are leds? is so they would generate a lot less heat than a halogen which should never be installed to celing batten or within 100mm of it.

NZECP54 is what you need to read.

This has all the clearences and stuff that you need to know, but when we were doing installs and prewires and had no celings in we would put them where it looked best and with plenty of clearance from battens.

https://worksafe.govt.nz/dmsdocument/1583-new-zealand-electrical-code-of-practice-for-the-installation-of-recessed-luminaires-and-auxiliary-equipment-nzecp-54-2001

This ECP is 17 years old, it does not even mention IC rated light fittings and I suspect it has been superseded well and truly by AS/NZS3000:2017

mattwnz

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#2160375 13-Jan-2019 17:16

Contact the manufacturer and ask if it will void the warranty to have it closer to flammable elements such as joists. From what I understand, IC refers to insulation only, and only insulation that is non flammable, so you should check with the insulation manufacturer as well. Odd that the stuck the IC sticker over the logo that shows this.

Paul1977

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#2160383 13-Jan-2019 17:29

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I was in a lighting place today and asked the guy there, who said very much what everyone hear has - it wants that much clearance from flammable material (which would include a timber joist), possibly because they just haven't paid for the testing required to be able to say it is zero clearance.

So while the chances of it anything happening with the low temps coming of an LED are low, if it did happen there could be insurance implications etc if the clearance guidelines aren't followed.

I'm having a rethink of the design to try to make it work while still allowing these minimum clearances, and will give a sparkie a call in the morning.

mattwnz

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#2160388 13-Jan-2019 17:33

Paul1977:

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I was in a lighting place today and asked the guy there, who said very much what everyone hear has - it wants that much clearance from flammable material (which would include a timber joist), possibly because they just haven't paid for the testing required to be able to say it is zero clearance.

So while the chances of it anything happening with the low temps coming of an LED are low, if it did happen there could be insurance implications etc if the clearance guidelines aren't followed.

I'm having a rethink of the design to try to make it work while still allowing these minimum clearances, and will give a sparkie a call in the morning.

I am going through this myself with new light fittings . Yes I think there could potentially be insurance implications if they are installed too close, as it then means they haven't been installed to the manufacturers guidelines..

sparkz25

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#2160394 13-Jan-2019 17:40

gregmcc:

sparkz25:

If is was me I would need to have a look at the installation.

But It's all up to your sparky if he wants to install them, so it might pay to get him to have a look.

Im guessing these are leds? is so they would generate a lot less heat than a halogen which should never be installed to celing batten or within 100mm of it.

NZECP54 is what you need to read.

This has all the clearences and stuff that you need to know, but when we were doing installs and prewires and had no celings in we would put them where it looked best and with plenty of clearance from battens.

https://worksafe.govt.nz/dmsdocument/1583-new-zealand-electrical-code-of-practice-for-the-installation-of-recessed-luminaires-and-auxiliary-equipment-nzecp-54-2001

This ECP is 17 years old, it does not even mention IC rated light fittings and I suspect it has been superseded well and truly by AS/NZS3000:2017

looks like AS/NZS 3000/2018 is out now, just having a look through that and you are right it has superseded ECP54

Paul1977

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#2160399 13-Jan-2019 17:50

Thinking about... wouldn't the laths in the lath and plaster ceiling be classed as flammable the same as a timber joist?

mattwnz

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#2160421 13-Jan-2019 18:33

Paul1977:

Thinking about... wouldn't the laths in the lath and plaster ceiling be classed as flammable the same as a timber joist?

Possibly yes, and may depend on the thickness of the ceiling lining and whether the lathes are in relation to the heatsink. Although normally ceilings are just gib, and the heat sink would be positioned quite a bit above this. Lath and plaster is very old school, so it wouldn't be a typical install. So definitely something to consider.

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