Is Netflix too much traffic for your ISP?

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#1291424 25-Apr-2015 18:24

roobarb: I'd like to compare internet traffic with a road system.

Broadcast TV, satellite and terrestrial, is incredibly efficient, its like have a single car containing a million people on a road, the internet is the reverse, it's a million cars with one person each. Of course, those million people in that single car must want to go the same place at the same time. Just building roads does not solve congestion, it encourages more traffic and just moves the problem around.

I think of it as a road network that was working along fine.
Except now you can get pizza delivered to your door but dominos and pizza hutt have decided they shall deliver all pizzas from one big oven in auckland. Thats going to congest the roads at many points along the way.

The solution I believe is regional internet exchanges with co-owned CDN boxes and openconnect.
The net neutrality issue that netflix is fighting in the USA is going to become a problem here in NZ over the next 5 years - and there are two solutions

1) Netflix installs cache nodes in every major town so the source gets closer to the destination
2) ISP's create more regional internet exchanges with co-owned netflix CDN caches.
Larger ISPs can install the caches with their own regional equipment - smaller ISPs will work together.

One thing i was told by the small ISPs in the USA is that a netflix box requires about a 100mbit uplink scheduled for about 6 hours a day to update and fill the content... probably not that much in NZ but in chatting to the guy from fullflavour, his box was using about 1gbit and had taken 18 hours to fill when i was looking at the graphs, and was still going strong. The data was filling from australia.

Ray Taylor

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DonGould

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#1291468 25-Apr-2015 19:24

Aredwood: Guess everyone who is connected to a Conklin Is now going to call their MP.

That seems like a very reasonable idea.

http://www.computerworld.co.nz/article/493990/new_zealand_field_dreams/

"Telecom has promised to deliver 10Mbit/s to 80% of New Zealanders and 20Mbit/s to 50% by 2010."

Now let's highlight the important bits and remove bits that just aren't relevant.

"... promised to deliver 10Mbit/s to 80% of New Zealanders and 20Mbit/s to 50% by 2010."

...and now let me explain the reasons for the edit.

1. Yes I removed "Telecom". Firstly that company doesn't even exist any more, so to point to it would just be silly. Secondly, it's not the role of a private company to ensure the delivery of services to the community, that is the role of government.

If a market is being served by a private company, or companies, then it's simply the role of government to provide regulation, if needed, so that those companies can operate effectively.

2. 10Mbit/s to 80% ... by 2010.

We're not in 2010 any more. We're in 2015, so in my view it's time we should be addressing that other 20% of folk who didn't qualify for the minimum base line of the other 80%.

That's 800,000 New Zealanders who have less service than the rest.

It's the role of government to address issues like these.

https://www.med.govt.nz/sectors-industries/technology-communication/pdf-docs-library/communications/telecom-separation/telecom-separation-undertakings.pdf

"More than 1500 distribution cabinets have been installed or equipped with ADSL2+ or equivalent DSL capability (e.g. VDSL capability) in Telecom Zones 1, 2 and 3, with DSLAMs installed and operational. At least 99% of lines served off these cabinets and within those zones will be engineered to have a maximum line loss of 60db measured at 1024kbps at the external termination point."

Historically New Zealanders, via its government have viewed it the role of government to make regulation to impact telecommunications service delivery.

Hence I repeat, if you're not getting 10mbits to your home then you should be in contact with your local MP to have a discussion about your digital divide because 80% of New Zealanders now have access to something you don't.

Why should you even care?!

If you're living in a city, with 10mbits, you should care.

When was the last time you listed something on TradeMe? When was the last time you sold something to someone out of town?

The Internet drives business and 20% of your potential customers not being able to view your web site as well as the other 80% should be an issue to you.

To me, it's like saying "hey mate you don't really need those glasses or hearing aids. so you can't see 20% of what I can see, but who gives a toss? Why should government help you?"

If we were talking about your right to see or hear then you'd just be laughing your nut off at me, but yet there are some here who seem to think that 20% of our population being under served is ok and they should just suck it up.

Let's tell that to the thousands of people who make a living from providing great healthcare so we can all enjoy a quality of life.

D

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Talkiet

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#1291489 25-Apr-2015 19:51

Don. RBI.

As usual you have a pretty strange view of things. I honestly think you don't understand that it costs disproportionate amounts of money to build to the last few percent of the population. You will say you do understand, but then all your arguments simply fail to take it into account.

N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

DonGould

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#1291512 25-Apr-2015 20:47

Talkiet: Don. RBI.

That's right Neil.

Given that the government is funding that exercise, that's exactly why I said that people without service should speak to the government.

I didn't say they should ring Spark and have a whinge because Spark is really Telecom and they're the ones that built the phone network... or some other stupid crap.

I said that people should talk to their government representative who should in turn direct them to RBI solutions.

Talkiet:
As usual you have a pretty strange view of things. I honestly think you don't understand that it costs disproportionate amounts of money to build to the last few percent of the population. You will say you do understand, but then all your arguments simply fail to take it into account.

That's ok. I don't actually have any idea what you're making reference to. Perhaps you'd like to quote me so readers can make the connection between your comments and mine because I can't.

As for the issue of disproportionate costs, I'm not even going to bother to argue that with you. If readers want to figure out why you're wrong then they might like to just read back the history of Ray Taylor's posts on these issues. Ray has presented some of the best evidence on Geekzone as to why you're just wrong.

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Talkiet

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#1291515 25-Apr-2015 20:52

I'm out. You have no real telco level experience that I'm aware of yet seem to be portraying yourself as someone with valuable insight into the policy, financial and planning around NZs Broadband.

I'm going to let your posts speak for themselves from now on.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

DonGould

3892 posts

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#1291520 25-Apr-2015 21:10

Talkiet: ... portraying yourself as someone with valuable insight into the policy, financial and planning around NZs Broadband.

Really?!

I think most folk, who follow along here, well know that I have a keen interest in the subject, but well understand where I'm positioned in the space.

As for 'valuable insight', any sensible social media reader considers, with a great deal of care, views expressed in spaces like these.

But it's why sites like this have 'rep tags' (which I clearly don't have), 'trusted flags' (again which I clearly don't have) and 'post counts' and '+1 received by user:' flags.

So let's do a quick compare shall we?

Neil - 2153 posts | 15 friends - Trusted - Vendor - +1 received by user: 651
Don 3510 posts | 241 friends - untrusted - none stated - +1 received by user: 76

Seems very clear to me that while limited folk seem to be interested in flagging you as a friend, your views are clearly trusted and valued by the community.

I clearly seem to have a more social value, but few folk ever thought I said anything of value when compared to you. My higher post count in a shorter time also seems to suggest that I'm here to chat and discuss where as it's likely you're here to inform and help.

Talkiet: I'm going to let your posts speak for themselves from now on.

That's up to you, but I think readers should perhaps also consider the general views of the community too as indicated by the provided tools.

Cheers Don

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coffeebaron

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#1291527 25-Apr-2015 21:37

@DonGould how's the ISP your were planning on starting a while ago going?

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DonGould

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#1291528 25-Apr-2015 21:47

raytaylor:

1) Netflix installs cache nodes in every major town so the source gets closer to the destination
2) ISP's create more regional internet exchanges with co-owned netflix CDN caches.
Larger ISPs can install the caches with their own regional equipment - smaller ISPs will work together.

I don't fully agree with you.

1. As a community we need to focus the right resource in every location. In some cases, depending on service demand, a cache might might make sense. In other cases it might be a case of just having more transit to a given location.

http://www.gowifi.co.nz/coming-soon-new-products/mikrotik-sfp-10g-single-mode-10km.html?keyword=sfp+

Less than $2000 you can upgrade fibre from town to town. Is it really worth the investment of a cache in every town? What are these cache's worth?

A cache also fixes netflix, but what about Light box, what about HBO when that gets here? The list goes on.

I agree it makes good sense to have some .nz based cache for this stuff but from a net nutrality point of view, we also need great focus just on network capacity so that 'provider' looses relevance.

2. I fully agree with the 'regional internet exchanges' aspect of your comment. pppoe sessions should terminate close to the customer and layer 3 routing should kick in. We shouldn't be moving traffic to Christchurch, Wellington and Auckland that only needs to go from one port in an ISAM to another.

3. "smaller ISPs will work together. " - everyone needs to work together and we all need to use the right technology choices.

My view is that's something we're doing better in New Zealand than some places. Have you looked at the Australian disaster recently?!

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Talkiet

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#1291530 25-Apr-2015 21:50

Oh God, please stop with the things you don't know about... L3 routing, go from one port in an ISAM to another?

SMH.

N.

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

DonGould

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#1291531 25-Apr-2015 21:56

coffeebaron: @DonGould how's the ISP your were planning on starting a while ago going?

Currently very over taken by the people wanting to pay me to do other stuff that I'm just better at and a 6 month break to repair my very VERY broken home in Christchurch (follow me on facebook if you're interested in that exercise). :)

As a research project it was a very interesting exercise and I've learnt a lot.

As a dream, it's not dead, but as a 'living' it's not a flying thing currently.

But we're getting way off topic for this thread. If you're interested in my views on the dynamics of breaking into the ISP market in New Zealand currently then feel free to open a new thread and draw my attention to it. :)

D

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DonGould

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#1291534 25-Apr-2015 22:05

Talkiet: Oh God, please stop with the things you don't know about... L3 routing, go from one port in an ISAM to another?

Ok well I thought you were 'out', but clearly not, so let's chat about that one.

AIUI, and you might like to actually correct me if I'm wrong so readers know how an ISAM actually works if I'm wrong, everything is switched layer 2 MPLS.

In the case of some of my services I get layer 2 Ethernet delivered on a VLAN.

In the case of others (typically ADSL v's VDSL) I get a layer 2 service but have to establish a PPPoA session to get any sort of connectivity, which is then terminated on a BRAS some where else (but specifically not locally in the road side cabinet).

I fully understand that Chorus ISAM boards don't do layer 3 at all. I simply hold the view that they should.

In my view, traffic shouldn't go any further than it actually has to.

Traffic should peer in local suburbs. Traffic from my mobile should go to my closest tower, then to the cabinet that my ADSL service is connected to. Everything should be done at layer 3, not layer 2.

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Talkiet

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#1291535 25-Apr-2015 22:08

No, you're right, I should be out. I apologise. It's just like a train crash though. Horrible but I can't look away.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

DonGould

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#1291542 25-Apr-2015 22:20

Talkiet: ... but I can't look away.

DonGould: I'm here to chat and discuss where as it's likely you're here to inform and help.

Clearly I was wrong.

I'm here to chat and discuss, so far you just seem to mock.

How about diving in a little and pulling it apart?

Why don't you want to see layer 3 in a road side cabinet (RSC)?

Are you fearful that it would break Chorus if providers could actually put layer 3 DSLAMs in RSC's and communicate directly with the other customers in the same box?

Are you concerned that the general poor layer 3 skills that most small providers seem to have would just break the internet for everyone in the box?

Or is your concern the cost of this gear to deploy?

What's your issue with layer 3?

D

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yitz

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#1291545 25-Apr-2015 22:23

DonGould: Everything should be done at layer 3, not layer 2.

Dude you should let the Metro Ethernet Forum know about this one...

Talkiet

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#1291546 25-Apr-2015 22:25

You won't see an answer here from me. I have sent Don a private message explaining why.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

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