2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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Mad Scientist
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#2813442 15-Nov-2021 17:56

Handsomedan:

mattwnz:

If the Auckland border opened, imo it would essentially spread like wildfire and vaccination rates are not high enough outside Auckland. Instead they are giving Aucklanders as much freedom and normality as safely possible within the border, and balancing this with the health system.

As an Aucklander, I actually just don't give a rats arse about the rest of the country anymore.

They don't know what it's like. They're not being lauded for "doing it for the country" while being called Plague Rats and knowing they'll be unwelcome anywhere else but Queenstown.

I'm just over this whole "us and them" business. The rest of the country had its chance. Open the borders and let them reap what they sow.

is (Akl border opening) it still pencilled for Nov 29?

GV27

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#2813446 15-Nov-2021 18:04

Batman:

is (Akl border opening) it still pencilled for Nov 29?

No, that's the in-principle decision to move to the traffic light system. I'll note we didn't get a review of Auckland's alert settings so it looks unlikely we will ever see Level 3, Step 3, which begs the question what the hell the point of it was.

The real question is now 'does the rest of the country move then as well' even though that was the reward for Auckland getting to 90% double-jabbed; while it means more freedom for Auckland, it means less than Alert Level 2 for most of the rest of the country, which means there's not a huge incentive to crack 90% any time soon.

GV27

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#2813447 15-Nov-2021 18:06

mattwnz:

So you don't care about all the additional deaths that will occur, it would be carnage? Auckland is in the middle of a Covid outbreak, but has a better health capacity to cope with the outbreak than some other parts of NZ. I heard that Auckland has the only dedicated pediatric ICU in NZ too.

I'll flip that on its head: what possible end-game is there for this approach?

There's always going to be Covid in Auckland, and it's not Auckland's problem if the rest of the country hasn't used the last four months to get vaccinated and prepare for Delta. So how much longer should Aucklanders deal with being unable to see family or loved ones inside so the rest the country can plod along at Level 2 and just pretend it's out of sight, out of mind?

GV27

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#2813449 15-Nov-2021 18:13

Like I think I sort of knew the border announcement would be separate because they seem to like to scatter announcements throughout the week - which I personally hugely disagree with given the length of Auckland's lockdown and how long we've been isolated from the rest of the country.

But to see the Waikato side-step the Level 3, Step 3 thing is just a huge slap in the face. The team of five million is really a team of two million you can keep locked behind an ever-changing and bespoke alert level system no one else apparently has to follow, and everyone else who just gets to do what they want and are quite happy for Auckland to just constantly cop it.

gzt

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#2813450 15-Nov-2021 18:17

GV27:
I'll flip that on its head: what possible end-game is there for this approach?

There's always going to be Covid in Auckland, and it's not Auckland's problem if the rest of the country hasn't used the last four months to get vaccinated and prepare for Delta. So how much longer should Aucklanders deal with being unable to see family or loved ones inside so the rest the country can plod along at Level 2 and just pretend it's out of sight, out of mind?

Vaccination is rising all around the country including in Auckland. At the moment it's a matter of time. Outside is a pain and weather dependent. Not so bad going into summer. Not easy tho.

duckDecoy

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#2813451 15-Nov-2021 18:17

mattwnz:

So you don't care about all the additional deaths that will occur,

Just to be devils advocate

Surely those who haven't got their act together and got vaccinated outside of Auckland have some responsibility, surely?

Its coming. Everywhere. At some stage. Keeping Auckland locked up or not, its coming. When does Auckland's responsibility cease and the reset of the country's begin? When it does spread I don't think Aucklanders are going to take kindly to being blamed for it.

ezbee

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#2813452 15-Nov-2021 18:23

Northland where your ICU may have sewage running through the walls.
At least it saves on heating in the winter ?

While its a false equivalence ?, its interesting the effort put into Hundertwasser Art Centre.

Maybe a new Hunttervasser architecture style Hospital would have been a greater asset ?
Its bright and whimsical look and role of tourist attraction may have been a better thing for whole community.

Hunttervasser community housing would have been great too, I think he did some designs for housing developments ?

A lot of depravation, low vaccination rates for everything, high rates of health issues, childhood heart damage and such.
Long distances, poorly maintained roads, and one lane bridges for ambulances to navigate.

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Batman

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#2813459 15-Nov-2021 18:57

GV27:

Batman:

is (Akl border opening) it still pencilled for Nov 29?

No, that's the in-principle decision to move to the traffic light system. I'll note we didn't get a review of Auckland's alert settings so it looks unlikely we will ever see Level 3, Step 3, which begs the question what the hell the point of it was.

The real question is now 'does the rest of the country move then as well' even though that was the reward for Auckland getting to 90% double-jabbed; while it means more freedom for Auckland, it means less than Alert Level 2 for most of the rest of the country, which means there's not a huge incentive to crack 90% any time soon.

heck that's difficult to swallow.

as i have said many times, the best chance of opening up auckland is by covid seeding everywhere, that way there is no need to contain it in auckland. (and as others have said, would be bad news for our hopeless hospitals, but assuming we are thinking about auckland for a moment here)

except that PM has said Auckland will get to travel for Christmas .... so it will happen i guess ... maybe a delay tactic to hope nobody books anything so nobody will actually travel

GV27

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#2813462 15-Nov-2021 19:00

Batman:

heck that's difficult to swallow.

as i have said many times, the best chance of opening up auckland is by covid seeding everywhere, that way there is no need to contain it in auckland. (and as others have said, would be bad news for our hopeless hospitals, but assuming we are thinking about auckland for a moment here)

except that PM has said Auckland will get to travel for Christmas .... so it will happen i guess ... maybe a delay tactic to hope nobody books anything so nobody will actually travel

At the time I sort of thought that would be a pretty crappy way to get what we want.

But you're 100% right. And that's what's going to happen. And the rest of the country might move to the traffic light system before they hit 90% but apparently it's something Aucklanders absolutely had to spend months working towards.

We really are the national whipping boy.

GV27

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#2813464 15-Nov-2021 19:06

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-no-jab-but-paid-special-leave-for-up-to-a-month-if-vaccine-refused/G6QGTW7I6R72ED447V56ULECEQ/

In keeping with the 'things we predicted' theme:

Staff at a public agency who refuse to get vaccinated could be put on paid special leave for up to a month.

...

"Staff members who opt to not be vaccinated are likely to be either placed on alternative duties or on paid special leave while Oranga Tamariki works through the implications for the individual staff member's ongoing employment," Aiono added.

A staff member is likely to be placed on paid special leave for "generally up to one month, and after that may be placed on leave without pay", Aiono said.

Someone ask Auckland taxpayers who have been living off the wage subsidy at times what they think of this. My gut feel is that they may not be that sympathetic.

mattwnz

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#2813490 15-Nov-2021 19:32

GV27:

Batman:

heck that's difficult to swallow.

as i have said many times, the best chance of opening up auckland is by covid seeding everywhere, that way there is no need to contain it in auckland. (and as others have said, would be bad news for our hopeless hospitals, but assuming we are thinking about auckland for a moment here)

except that PM has said Auckland will get to travel for Christmas .... so it will happen i guess ... maybe a delay tactic to hope nobody books anything so nobody will actually travel

At the time I sort of thought that would be a pretty crappy way to get what we want.

But you're 100% right. And that's what's going to happen. And the rest of the country might move to the traffic light system before they hit 90% but apparently it's something Aucklanders absolutely had to spend months working towards.

We really are the national whipping boy.

The whole of NZ probably should be in a form of the traffic light system now IMO. The PM even said today that that provides additional protections over the levels. But a lot of businesses can't operate in level 2 currently throughout NZ, and a lot of events have been cancelled. IMO a lot of the wait seems to be around these vaccine passports.

The PM has for some time also said that NZ due to this covid outbreak, it means NZ is in an awkward transition. I have also heard several people from Auckland tell me that they wished that Auckland had stayed in L4 for longer and all the lockdown flouters, rather than relying on an honour system, because they didn't know that it would result in L3 for months and months.

Oblivian

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#2813497 15-Nov-2021 19:55

GV27: And the rest of the country might move to the traffic light system before they hit 90% but apparently it's something Aucklanders absolutely had to spend months working towards.

We really are the national whipping boy.

Might need to lay off the thread for a bit? Gettin not so great vibes. And may be taking away from what the traffic light system actually means. And what will be in place when it is active? Even to areas outside akl, presuming they have the ability to move to orange.

Level 3 has limits. It has some business/hospo unable to trade.

Level 2 has raised limits. And more businesses/hospo able to trade. But not all back to norm by any stretch.

Red/orange/green. More are able to trade. Everywhere. All have varied limits. But you must prove your patrons are vaccinated. Or be screwed over.
Ala, it may be effectively be more restrictive than 2 is currently outside akl to some. Or suddenly impact day to day.

For akl to go red, or more stuff than now. either the proof system needs to be in place. Or you need to ensure most people were by way of numbers immediately as there was an outbreak active. We're nearly there. Even down here in cdhb. And would probably be going to it as soon as akl did under the original plan as result.

Threatening to move everyone. Makes it suddenly a motivational push to raise everyone elses stats while sneaky imposing a new set of restrictions on what has been the norm. Aka everyone's Reality will hit.

Did you know outside of akl Christmas events are cancelled too? Can't have parades - its over 100 unmanageable people in an outside space. Actually the same thing under new orange framework.

And before reverting to I wish to see my family in a house again. Do it.. every other bstard is. Might not admit it, but you know its how akl got to this point.

GV27

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#2813498 15-Nov-2021 20:00

Oblivian:
GV27: And the rest of the country might move to the traffic light system before they hit 90% but apparently it's something Aucklanders absolutely had to spend months working towards.

We really are the national whipping boy.

Might need to lay off the thread for a bit? Gwttind not so great vibes. And may be taking away from what the traffic light system actually means. And what will be in place when it is active? Even to areas outside akl, presuming they have the ability to move to orange.

Level 3 has limits. It has some business/hospo unable to trade.

Level 2 has raised limits. And more businesses/hospo able to trade. But not all back to norm by any stretch.

Red/orange/green. More are able to trade. Everywhere. All have varied limits. But you must prove your patrons are vaccinated. Or be screwed over.
Ala, it may be effectively be more restrictive than 2 is currently outside akl to some. Or suddenly impact day to day.

For akl to go red, or more stuff than now. either the proof system needs to be in place. Or you need to ensure most people were by way of numbers immediately as there was an outbreak active. We're nearly there. Even down here in cdhb. And would probably be going to it as soon as akl did under the original plan as result.

Threatening to move everyone. Makes it suddenly a motivational push to raise everyone elses stats while sneaky imposing a new set of restrictions on what has been the norm. Aka everyone's Reality will hit.

Did you know outside of akl Christmas events are cancelled too? Can't have parades - its over 100 unmanageable people in an outside space. Actually the same thing under new orange framework.

And before reverting to I wish to see my family in a house again. Do it.. every other bstard is. Might not admit it, but you know its how akl got to this point.

Look the whole thing will have some horizon to it once the border announcement happens. I think people need to appreciate this whole situation has been extremely open-ended to the point of 'Who even knows anymore', but that will at least be a return to normality or some sort.

Handle9

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#2813511 15-Nov-2021 20:28

GV27:

Look the whole thing will have some horizon to it once the border announcement happens. I think people need to appreciate this whole situation has been extremely open-ended to the point of 'Who even knows anymore', but that will at least be a return to normality or some sort.

It's great, isn't it? You get used to it after 18 months.

alasta

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#2813521 15-Nov-2021 20:41

Oblivian:

Did you know outside of akl Christmas events are cancelled too? Can't have parades - its over 100 unmanageable people in an outside space. Actually the same thing under new orange framework.

This page would seem to indicate that indoor and outdoor events can go ahead in the orange setting without headcount limits.

In the red setting there appears to be a headcount limit of 100 which would mean that events would have to be cancelled, but the government backed event insurance scheme means that event organisers won't need to announce cancellations until it becomes clear that they will be affected by the red traffic light at the time of their event.

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