4 km/hr speed tolerance 2015

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#1460473 3-Jan-2016 07:33

Jase2985:
frankv:
The serious crash unit does not investigate non-crashes. If a car is speeding but there is no crash, then it doesn't figure in the statistics as to what is 'safe' and what is 'not safe'. The removal of speed limits from American freeways shows that, where roads are well-engineered, a speed limit has *no* impact on safety.

how many states have removed the speed limit?

australia removed all their unlimited speed limit areas so that the opsite of what you are preaching

there has to be a limit imposed somewhere to faciliate some form of safety on our roads. can/could i drive faster safely on our roads, yes, but sooner or later i would encouter the limit, what happens then? might have a s$&% my self moment or i might have an accident, i might kill those in my car or those in someone elses car. Should we let someone inexperianced in driving try to find those limits themselves or should we set them limits to follow and have penalities should they choose not to?

the road is not a race track so there needs to be limits.

dont like it, dont drive on them

Apparently they extended them ?

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#1460497 3-Jan-2016 09:14

Was removed in 2007, and it seems that in 2014 they put in a trial on a small section of the highway, the article you linked is an extention to that trial.

there used to be 1700km+ of open speed limit in the Northern Territory

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#1460536 3-Jan-2016 10:52

Jase2985:
frankv:
The serious crash unit does not investigate non-crashes. If a car is speeding but there is no crash, then it doesn't figure in the statistics as to what is 'safe' and what is 'not safe'. The removal of speed limits from American freeways shows that, where roads are well-engineered, a speed limit has *no* impact on safety.

how many states have removed the speed limit?

Thanks for that... your question led me to do some research into stuff which I "knew" without actually knowing the factual basis. I've spent an interesting couple of hours looking into it. Direct quotes in italics.

Before the 1973 energy crisis, some states posted no speed limit on Interstate highways. http://www.speedingtickethelp.info/facts-on-speeding/united-states.shtml

In March 1974, to save fuel, Congress established a national 55mph speed limit on US roads and highways (resulting in a 1% fuel saving), increased it to 65mph in 1987, and repealed it in 1995. Montana then allowed any reasonable and prudent speed during daylight hours, with no numerical limit (Looks like I was mistaken in my belief that several states did). Just before this change, you would get a $5 fine in Montana (good for the whole day) for speeding, up to 70mph.

I believed that fatality rates *fell* when the 65mph limit was removed. The figures for Montana don't back that up (although there was no significant increase), but it does apply to speed limit increases at that time rather than removal.

Despite the fact that 33 states raised their speed limits immediately after the repeal of the mandatory federal speed limit, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration reported last October that “the traffic death rate dropped to a record low level in 1997.” http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa346.pdf

However, it's clear that reimposition of speed limits in 2000 was a bad thing in Montana.

In the late 90's Montana had no speed limit during daytime hours. The law was that drivers were allowed to drive at speeds considered "reasonable and prudent." Supporters of Montana not having a speed limit say the fatality rate on Montana highways in the final five months without a speed limit were lower than after speed limits were reinstated. Why? Some of that could be linked to drivers on roads with no speed limits pay greater attention to what's happening on the road and spend less time worrying about speed traps and staying within a certain speed limit. http://www.cnbc.com/id/49520151

The doubling of fatal accidents occurred after Montana implemented its new safety program; complete with federal funding, artificially low speed limits and full enforcement. https://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/

Montana's freeways now have a 80mph speed limit, recently increased from 75. The highest US speed limit currently is 85mph on one section of road in Texas.

And, to finish up, an interesting quote which seems relevant to NZ's reduced tolerance (finally, back On-Topic!

), also from http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa346.pdf

Finally, enforcing the 55-mph speed limit preoccupied the highway patrol from tending to more serious offenses. In fact, in 1988 the association of highway state troopers passed a resolution against the maximum speed limit, noting that enforcing the 55-mph speed limit causes “the over-concentration of limited resources for the express purpose of attaining compliance rather than application of resources in a manner most effectively enhancing total highway safety.”

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#1460540 3-Jan-2016 11:04

frankv:
sdav: They can only hammer home the same things they see in all their serious crashes. At the end of the day the speed determines the outcome.

This is falling for the simplistic sound-bite propaganda. At the end of the day, the speed AT IMPACT (*if* there is an impact) is what determines the outcome.

Speed directly affects the following things that increase the probability an impact occurs.

- The amount of reaction time the driver has.
- The ability of the vehicle to perform an evasive maneouver.

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#1460570 3-Jan-2016 12:27

im glad all your research is current :(

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#1460606 3-Jan-2016 14:11

Montana's freeways now have a 80mph speed limit, recently increased from 75. The highest US speed limit currently is 85mph on one section of road in Texas.

And, to finish up, an interesting quote which seems relevant to NZ's reduced tolerance (finally, back On-Topic!

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#1460854 3-Jan-2016 23:58

frankv:
sdav:
frankv:
sdav: They can only hammer home the same things they see in all their serious crashes. At the end of the day the speed determines the outcome.

This is falling for the simplistic sound-bite propaganda. At the end of the day, the speed AT IMPACT (*if* there is an impact) is what determines the outcome.

Well of course. How did what I say contradict that?

My interpretation was that you were saying (as the police do) that the speed of the car determines the outcome. I apologise if I've mired that.

In fact, it is just one of the factors.

The serious crash unit does not investigate non-crashes. If a car is speeding but there is no crash, then it doesn't figure in the statistics as to what is 'safe' and what is 'not safe'. The removal of speed limits from American freeways shows that, where roads are well-engineered, a speed limit has *no* impact on safety.

The speed limit may not. It's merely paint on a sign.

The speed of the vehicles involved at impact most certainly does, however.

ScuL

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#1461790 5-Jan-2016 16:18

Here I come again with my European perspective.

I don't necessarily think the 4km/h margin is an issue, most European police forces use the same tolerance.
However NZ speed limits do need reviewing based on the road conditions.

There are many roads where a blanket 100km/h limit is absolutely bonkers (Coromandel-Thames road, Taupo-Napier or Arthur's Pass road for instance). Such roads should have a 80km/h reduced speed limit (or sometimes even 60km/h).
However there are also a fair few roads where the 100km/h limit is sleep inducing SH1 Puhoi-Albany, SH1 Manurewa-Pokeno, SH1 Taupiri-Hamilton and SH1 Tamahere-Cambridge are definitely suitable for 110km/h, if not 120km/h limits. (There are certainly stretches in the rest of the country where this could apply however I am more familiar with the beforementioned areas).

I believe that once the SH1 upgrades have completed and the 1x1 and 2+1 sections have all been upgraded to 2x2 there will be a push by several organisations and the government to introduce a higher limit.

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#1461836 5-Jan-2016 18:12

ScuL: Here I come again with my European perspective.

I don't necessarily think the 4km/h margin is an issue, most European police forces use the same tolerance.
However NZ speed limits do need reviewing based on the road conditions.

There are many roads where a blanket 100km/h limit is absolutely bonkers (Coromandel-Thames road, Taupo-Napier or Arthur's Pass road for instance). Such roads should have a 80km/h reduced speed limit (or sometimes even 60km/h).

I assume the 'safer speed zones' in some of those areas are in response to previous incidents over a period of time. It's a good thing.

However there are also a fair few roads where the 100km/h limit is sleep inducing SH1 Puhoi-Albany, SH1 Manurewa-Pokeno, SH1 Taupiri-Hamilton and SH1 Tamahere-Cambridge are definitely suitable for 110km/h, if not 120km/h limits. (There are certainly stretches in the rest of the country where this could apply however I am more familiar with the beforementioned areas).

At least one of these is a relatively new road surface. I'm not sure we can go to 100+ because I do wonder about our ability to maintain those roads at a high standard.

I believe that once the SH1 upgrades have completed and the 1x1 and 2+1 sections have all been upgraded to 2x2 there will be a push by several organisations and the government to introduce a higher limit.

Again, maintaining is the key. Can we do it? So much of our motorway surface is scrappy patches forever.

ScuL

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#1461881 5-Jan-2016 19:30

At least one of these is a relatively new road surface. I'm not sure we can go to 100+ because I do wonder about our ability to maintain those roads at a high standard.

Again, maintaining is the key. Can we do it? So much of our motorway surface is scrappy patches forever.

Much of the UK's dual carriageway network is in much poorer condition and the legal limit on those roads is 70mph (112kmh).
I'm sure that it could be done, I also think that in case limits are raised road surfaces will be scrutinised more to ensure safety. Wider lanes, safety barriers and hard shoulders are already applied on those stretches. I believe I've seen in a report that the new Waikato Expressway sections are being built to 130km/h standards to make them "future proof".

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antonknee

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#1461885 5-Jan-2016 19:36

There are roads where it would be safe to go above 100km/h (like the Waikato Expressway and most of Auckland's motorways). But then there are roads where even thinking about doing 100 km/h is stupid. Personally I think that higher limits should be considered for roads where suitable, rather than a limit of 100 nationwide.

Interesting that despite lower tolerances we've had a pretty bad year for road accidents/fatalities. Makes you wonder how much speed really comes into it...

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#1461928 5-Jan-2016 20:58

antonknee: There are roads where it would be safe to go above 100km/h (like the Waikato Expressway and most of Auckland's motorways). But then there are roads where even thinking about doing 100 km/h is stupid. Personally I think that higher limits should be considered for roads where suitable, rather than a limit of 100 nationwide.

And that's exactly what the NZTA are working on right now with regional and district councils to change the way speed limits are designed and managed. Waikato is first off the mark in early 2016 as the signature project, the rest of the country will follow. It's been in the papers on and off for a while now.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

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#1462096 6-Jan-2016 08:00

It would be very interesting to know in all cases of fatalities and also in non-fatal accedients whether worrying about the 4lm/hr tolerance and if consantly watching their speed rather than the road was a factor. It's a shame that the dead won't give up that information as it could be quite interesting.

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#1462099 6-Jan-2016 08:08

ScuL: I believe I've seen in a report that the new Waikato Expressway sections are being built to 130km/h standards to make them "future proof".

I wonder what these standards are?
- one-way dual carriage
- smooth seal
- lane width
- bank radius
- bank camber
- water clearance
-?

Which from driving in Australia, their 130k roads meets none of these other than bank radius, and maybe smooth seal when it's undamaged

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#1462121 6-Jan-2016 08:58

joker97:
ScuL: I believe I've seen in a report that the new Waikato Expressway sections are being built to 130km/h standards to make them "future proof".

I wonder what these standards are?
- one-way dual carriage
- smooth seal
- lane width
- bank radius
- bank camber
- water clearance
-?

Which from driving in Australia, their 130k roads meets none of these other than bank radius, and maybe smooth seal when it's undamaged

The odd thing is that the construction standards for countries with outstanding high speed roads such as Germany, France and the UK are all available to buy for next to nothing. We could buy the design manuals and implement them next week.

Or...we could reinvent the wheel.

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