EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#3323905 23-Dec-2024 22:17

In an average internal combustion engine (ICE) car, approximately 70-75% of the energy in petrol is lost as waste heat rather than being converted into useful mechanical energy to drive the car.

Around 60-70% of the fuel's energy is lost as heat through the engine block, radiator, and exhaust.

An additional 5-10% of the energy is lost due to internal friction within the engine and drivetrain.

From crude oil to the wheels, combining the 15-30% upstream losses with the 70-75% energy loss from inefficiencies in an internal combustion engine, only 15-25% of the original energy in crude oil is effectively used to move and ICE vehicle.

EVs typically achieve an overall efficiency of 80-90% from battery to wheels. This means only 10-20% of the energy is lost during the process of charging and driving.

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#3324038 24-Dec-2024 07:34

I found this interesting. Mentions how much oil is subsidized, cobalt use, and many other things....

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#3324079 24-Dec-2024 08:58

kingdragonfly: In an average internal combustion engine (ICE) car, approximately 70-75% of the energy in petrol is lost as waste heat rather than being converted into useful mechanical energy to drive the car.

Around 60-70% of the fuel's energy is lost as heat through the engine block, radiator, and exhaust.

An additional 5-10% of the energy is lost due to internal friction within the engine and drivetrain.

From crude oil to the wheels, combining the 15-30% upstream losses with the 70-75% energy loss from inefficiencies in an internal combustion engine, only 15-25% of the original energy in crude oil is effectively used to move and ICE vehicle.

EVs typically achieve an overall efficiency of 80-90% from battery to wheels. This means only 10-20% of the energy is lost during the process of charging and driving.

That's actually quite interesting.

Is there anywhere I can see more about this in layman's terms (I am not a clever human)?

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#3324085 24-Dec-2024 09:05

Handsomedan:

kingdragonfly: In an average internal combustion engine (ICE) car, approximately 70-75% of the energy in petrol is lost as waste heat rather than being converted into useful mechanical energy to drive the car.

Around 60-70% of the fuel's energy is lost as heat through the engine block, radiator, and exhaust.

An additional 5-10% of the energy is lost due to internal friction within the engine and drivetrain.

From crude oil to the wheels, combining the 15-30% upstream losses with the 70-75% energy loss from inefficiencies in an internal combustion engine, only 15-25% of the original energy in crude oil is effectively used to move and ICE vehicle.

EVs typically achieve an overall efficiency of 80-90% from battery to wheels. This means only 10-20% of the energy is lost during the process of charging and driving.

That's actually quite interesting.

Is there anywhere I can see more about this in layman's terms (I am not a clever human)?

It's actually worse than kingdragonfly's summary when upstream inefficiencies are taken into account, from here.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

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#3324114 24-Dec-2024 09:39

Handsomedan:
In an average internal combustion engine (ICE) car, approximately 70-75% of the energy in pIs there anywhere I can see more about this in layman's terms (I am not a clever human)?

I lot of petrol's energy just gets dumped as heat to the radiator and exhaust; some gets lost as friction of all the moving parts. Anything that's warm to the touch is wasted.

Some potential energy from the hot exhaust may recovered by a "turbo" turbocharger typically falls in the range of 15% to 25%, depending on the engine design, turbocharger efficiency, and operating conditions.

"Upstream" means everything from getting the oil out the ground, to running it through a refinery, to delivering it to a fuel station.

Not mentioned some heat gets lost when a car brakes. An EV can use "regenerative braking" to charge the battery much of the time when braking, which also saves wear-and-tear on brakes.

Wildly off-topic, modern locomotives use diesel generators to power electric generators, and the generators power the wheels. Locomotive use don't carry batteries, so they can't use regenerative braking to change batteries.

Instead modern locomotives call it "dynamic braking." While braking they create excess electricity to brake. Instead of batteries, they use giant resistors that get red hot. They blow the heat out of the top of the locomotive.

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#3324145 24-Dec-2024 11:22

kingdragonfly:

Some potential energy from the hot exhaust may recovered by a "turbo" turbocharger typically falls in the range of 15% to 25%, depending on the engine design, turbocharger efficiency, and operating conditions.

The heat in the compressed intake air is actively thrown away in the intercooler too.

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#3324170 24-Dec-2024 12:22

the above efficiencies are roughly right. the best efficiency ice engines are only 40-50% efficient and only for certain uses.

however the electricity to liquid fuel isn't quite correct as we get oil for nothing, its the cost/energy of making it into a usable product and how much we have to pay those countries that have it that matters. but overall close enough.

the other issue is at the other end. ev's typically do everything efficient as possible. aerodynamic shape, high efficiency tires etc. once you start using normal shape, normal tires etc, the efficiency lowers. it can really drop the range an ev can do. this is why telsa big truck has a middle seating position so it can have an aerodynamic cab. this is also why things like ev trucks don't work as well as you can't do the same efficiency tricks you can do with cars.

but if you get decent sized batteries and plenty of low cost green power (eg your own solar) then who cares how efficient it is.

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#3324349 25-Dec-2024 09:33

tweake:

fastbike:

We really need to get V2X up and running in this backward little country. My car is capable but the electrical regs won't allow it.

i assume you meaning the ev powering the grid at times. i don't really see it as a big deal, more of a nice to have. once you have a nice big home battery would V2X do a whole lot ?

last thing i would want to do is deplete the car battery and loose my transportation.

As an ex-Leaf owner, the using up battery charge cycles worries me a lot more than the battery being flat when I want to go somewhere. Presumably you can set a lower limit on how much it can discharge into the grid.

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#3324350 25-Dec-2024 09:36

kingdragonfly:

Wildly off-topic, modern locomotives use diesel generators to power electric generators, and the generators power the wheels. Locomotive use don't carry batteries, so they can't use regenerative braking to change batteries.

Instead modern locomotives call it "dynamic braking." While braking they create excess electricity to brake. Instead of batteries, they use giant resistors that get red hot. They blow the heat out of the top of the locomotive.

Battery carriages are becoming a thing for this exact reason. They add a carriage or two and a pantograph. The train then becomes electric where there are overheads, with battery to hop over short gaps, and retains the diesel for sections too long for the batteries.

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#3324355 25-Dec-2024 09:57

SaltyNZ:

As an ex-Leaf owner, the using up battery charge cycles worries me a lot more than the battery being flat when I want to go somewhere. Presumably you can set a lower limit on how much it can discharge into the grid.

Based on this research going on in the US using a Leaf in a V2X situation isn't necessarily as harmful to the battery SoH as you would expect

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

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#3324376 25-Dec-2024 11:32

SaltyNZ:

As an ex-Leaf owner, the using up battery charge cycles worries me a lot more than the battery being flat when I want to go somewhere. Presumably, you can set a lower limit on how much it can discharge into the grid.

The current research with the newer 40kW batteries is its time that degrades them more than charge cycles (except if you get them too hot)

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#3324429 25-Dec-2024 17:06

Some interesting data relating to the rate of EV uptake across numerous countries https://www.electricfelix.com/blog/raffl-riseofbevs-globaltrends

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

fastbike

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#3325735 29-Dec-2024 09:52

kingdragonfly:

Wildly off-topic, modern locomotives use diesel generators to power electric generators, and the generators power the wheels. Locomotive use don't carry batteries, so they can't use regenerative braking to change batteries.

Instead modern locomotives call it "dynamic braking." While braking they create excess electricity to brake. Instead of batteries, they use giant resistors that get red hot. They blow the heat out of the top of the locomotive.

Still widely off topic, I remember reading about the high speed trains the British were testing in the 70/80s, they used a hydrodynamic brake on the axle, effectively a water/glycol filled torque converter, that slowed the train at high speed. A radiator was used to dump the heat.

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#3325738 29-Dec-2024 09:57

Jase2985:

SaltyNZ:

As an ex-Leaf owner, the using up battery charge cycles worries me a lot more than the battery being flat when I want to go somewhere. Presumably, you can set a lower limit on how much it can discharge into the grid.

The current research with the newer 40kW batteries is its time that degrades them more than charge cycles (except if you get them too hot)

And 62kWh batteries are similar. My post a few days back envisioned using the car V2X to supplement the base load of the house when solar cannot provide it, rather than any larger loads such H20 heating, cooking, heat pumps etc. And only when I'm paying peak power rates, so some automation required.
Our house typically has a base load well under 1kW so I'd be thinking around 10kWh would be more than enough. We'd need to be able to set a max power transfer rate to look after the battery.

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#3325811 29-Dec-2024 12:53

fastbike:

And 62kWh batteries are similar. My post a few days back envisioned using the car V2X to supplement the base load of the house when solar cannot provide it, rather than any larger loads such H20 heating, cooking, heat pumps etc. And only when I'm paying peak power rates, so some automation required.
Our house typically has a base load well under 1kW so I'd be thinking around 10kWh would be more than enough. We'd need to be able to set a max power transfer rate to look after the battery.

i have to ask why bother?

you would have to be home with the car for starters

with the cost of batteries rapidly decreasing and lots of new tech starting to come out, just get a home battery.

also if your out of power for a day, so what. you have your secondary cooking/heating/etc. its not a big deal to be without power. having your car fueled up (especially with the shorter range ev's) is more important as you can evacuate if required, or go to work, or go shopping etc.

part of the idea around V2X was to support the power infrastructure, but that is only viable if the power co pays for it (which they won't). power co's are installing their own battery setups anyway. so that side of it is a non-issue.

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