EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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Ultimate Geek
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#2021969 24-May-2018 17:43

frednz:

Because the price of a new "pure" EV in NZ is at least $60,000, buying second-hand should be better from a financial viewpoint than buying a brand new EV, but without a manufacturer's NZ-New guarantee, it's more risky when things go wrong.

I'm not seeing that. For one thing, the 2nd hand EV I own cost me 1/3 the price of a new one, I could buy another one and still be ahead. Also, the Nissan Leaf is NZs most reliable car, very little goes wrong.

The 30kW Leaf with a potential battery issue: We don't know how bad those batteries will be, but even if owners have to buy a new battery - it will still work out cheaper than buying a new car that has a warranty. Worst case scenario - maybe $20k ahead compared to someone that buys a new car.

Basically, the risk is much less than the price difference between 2nd hand and new.

GV27

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#2021984 24-May-2018 17:58

MarkH67:

The 30kW Leaf with a potential battery issue: We don't know how bad those batteries will be, but even if owners have to buy a new battery - it will still work out cheaper than buying a new car that has a warranty. Worst case scenario - maybe $20k ahead compared to someone that buys a new car.

Basically, the risk is much less than the price difference between 2nd hand and new.

That would be fine if you were getting a premium product, but there's a lot of flimsy plastic on a Leaf that I wouldn't accept on a Suzuki Swift. These are the trade-offs people don't want to have to make; it needs to function just like a normal car does. VW gets it.

morrisk

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#2021990 24-May-2018 18:12

MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:

It's zero emissions.

Except it isn't zero. There is direct pollution caused by the operation of EVs.

Unless you don't have tyres and never use brake pads, at all, ever (particulate emmissions). Then there is heat and noise. Maybe a little bit of EMR as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/04/fewer-cars-not-electric-cars-beat-air-pollution-says-top-uk-adviser-prof-frank-kelly

The emissions are impressively low. But they aren't 0.0

I'm not even sure an EV could claim to have zero CO2 emissions - some direct emissions are likely produced by the wear of the tyres. PM certainly is.

These points about the emissions make no sense given that all the quoted sources of emissions from an EV are the same for ICE vehicles. The non debatable fact is that an EV does not have an exhaust pipe connected to an ICE.

Pointless debate for the sake of debate as I read it.

gzt

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#2021996 24-May-2018 18:24

MikeAqua:
Linuxluver:

People still don't realise it's already too late to be drving ICE cars.

Yet all your shrill evangelism changes nothing - except to use energy and generate heat.

Linuxluver's evangelism is resulting in the purchase of multiple electric vehicles. Following the Leaf specific discussion thread on geekzone you will see vehicles purchased at various key points there. Personally I've never noticed any shrillness and Linuxluver is achieving a lot counting this forum only and irl probably more.

tdgeek

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#2022019 24-May-2018 19:04

morrisk:

MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:

It's zero emissions.

Except it isn't zero. There is direct pollution caused by the operation of EVs.

Unless you don't have tyres and never use brake pads, at all, ever (particulate emmissions). Then there is heat and noise. Maybe a little bit of EMR as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/04/fewer-cars-not-electric-cars-beat-air-pollution-says-top-uk-adviser-prof-frank-kelly

The emissions are impressively low. But they aren't 0.0

I'm not even sure an EV could claim to have zero CO2 emissions - some direct emissions are likely produced by the wear of the tyres. PM certainly is.

These points about the emissions make no sense given that all the quoted sources of emissions from an EV are the same for ICE vehicles. The non debatable fact is that an EV does not have an exhaust pipe connected to an ICE.

Pointless debate for the sake of debate as I read it.

Quite a statement, but no support. Can you provide a URL that depicts that EV has the same emissions as an ICE.

tdgeek

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#2022020 24-May-2018 19:06

gzt:
MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:

People still don't realise it's already too late to be drving ICE cars.

Yet all your shrill evangelism changes nothing - except to use energy and generate heat.

Linuxluver's evangelism is resulting in the purchase of multiple electric vehicles. Following the Leaf specific discussion thread on geekzone you will see vehicles purchased at various key points there. Personally I've never noticed any shrillness and Linuxluver is achieving a lot counting this forum only and irl probably more.

Exactly. Passionate and many have learnt a lot. I view an ostrich head in the sand vs a Meerkat.

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morrisk

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Ultimate Geek
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#2022032 24-May-2018 19:18

tdgeek:

morrisk:

MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:

It's zero emissions.

Except it isn't zero. There is direct pollution caused by the operation of EVs.

Unless you don't have tyres and never use brake pads, at all, ever (particulate emmissions). Then there is heat and noise. Maybe a little bit of EMR as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/aug/04/fewer-cars-not-electric-cars-beat-air-pollution-says-top-uk-adviser-prof-frank-kelly

The emissions are impressively low. But they aren't 0.0

I'm not even sure an EV could claim to have zero CO2 emissions - some direct emissions are likely produced by the wear of the tyres. PM certainly is.

These points about the emissions make no sense given that all the quoted sources of emissions from an EV are the same for ICE vehicles. The non debatable fact is that an EV does not have an exhaust pipe connected to an ICE.

Pointless debate for the sake of debate as I read it.

Quite a statement, but no support. Can you provide a URL that depicts that EV has the same emissions as an ICE.

Whats a URL????

gzt

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#2022048 24-May-2018 19:28

Universal resource locator. Aka hyperlink, link, www. address, website.. did I miss any? ; ).

morrisk

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Ultimate Geek
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#2022053 24-May-2018 19:36

Thanks :) - but as I said pointless actually - debate for the sake of debate.

tdgeek

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#2022055 24-May-2018 19:39

morrisk:

Thanks :) - but as I said pointless actually - debate for the sake of debate.

No, a debate are two or more people discussing a topic, occasionally supporting it. If you dont want to debate or discuss, go to a Universal Resource Locator such as www.stuff.co.nz/comments

frednz

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#2022091 24-May-2018 20:31

MarkH67:

frednz:

Because the price of a new "pure" EV in NZ is at least $60,000, buying second-hand should be better from a financial viewpoint than buying a brand new EV, but without a manufacturer's NZ-New guarantee, it's more risky when things go wrong.

I'm not seeing that. For one thing, the 2nd hand EV I own cost me 1/3 the price of a new one, I could buy another one and still be ahead. Also, the Nissan Leaf is NZs most reliable car, very little goes wrong.

The 30kW Leaf with a potential battery issue: We don't know how bad those batteries will be, but even if owners have to buy a new battery - it will still work out cheaper than buying a new car that has a warranty. Worst case scenario - maybe $20k ahead compared to someone that buys a new car.

Basically, the risk is much less than the price difference between 2nd hand and new.

If you are buying a "good" Nissan 30 kWh Leaf (if there is such a vehicle), there are several second-hand ones that are listed on TradeMe for more than $40,000 and a lot between $30,000 and $40,000. So, these vehicles cost a great deal more than 1/3 the price of a new one and their battery quality is under a cloud due to the "Flip the Fleet" research.

Similarly, there are lots of second-hand 40 kWh Leafs advertised for between $53,000 to $63,000, so I would far prefer to wait until I could I get a NZ-New 40 kWh Leaf at these prices! Or even better, buy a new 64 kWh Hyundai Kona later this year.

There really is peace of mind and manufacturer protection from buying NZ-New vehicles and I wouldn't like to currently own a used 30 kWh Leaf in light of the battery degradation research. And can such owners buy a new battery in NZ and if so what do they cost?

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Linuxluver

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#2022144 24-May-2018 22:08

MikeB4:

I am also very uncomfortable with the concept of governments requiring companies to produce certain products. Safety standards yes but motor vehicles companies should not be regulated to sell EVs the market will bring that about.

Seat belts. Warrants of fitness. Regulating weights and measures. Overseeing a myriad range of manufacturing and quality standards......

Governments require things to be done all the time.

It's their job.

I stopped drinking the "government is bad" kool-aid years ago.

Private business is opaque, crony-ridden, ethincally unreliable...and frequently criminal.

If I have to choose between the two, I'll take a transparent, democratically accountable government any day over the unaccountable, unreliable alternatives.

The list of policy steps I outlined has proven effective in every jurisdiction it's been employed where increasing EV uptake is concerned.

The lack or progress in most other jurisdictions makes it plain that lack of regulation gets one precisely nowhere.

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Linuxluver

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#2022145 24-May-2018 22:10

MikeB4:

Zero emissions is not quite correct, the air conditioning, the materials on the dash board, the types all have pollutant emissions. I am a huge supporter of action to address climate change but this has to be done in a sensible and measured way or we could trigger even greater social catastrophes.

Picking nits. It's fun...but misses the point.

Zero emissions from traction energy applied to move the vehicle.

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Linuxluver

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#2022153 24-May-2018 22:17

frednz:

Linuxluver:

People still don't realise it's already too late to be driving ICE cars. We've increased atmospheric CO2 from 315ppm to 410ppm in only a century. The consequences of that are unfolding apparently slowly on the scale of human lifespans, but at lightning speed in planetary terms.

When you say "people" still don't realise it's already too late to be driving ICE cars, the Government has access to all the scientific brains of the world and has decided that, if there are 64,000 EVs in NZ by the end of 2021, this is a satisfactory step towards removing ICE vehicles from our roads.

If this target isn't high enough, what should the number be? The Government has to balance a huge number of conflicting interests, and we all know that it can't stop the use or import of all ICE vehicles overnight.

It's very easy to keep stating that nobody should be driving ICE vehicles or be involved in livestock farming or manufacturing industries etc etc, but unless a list of practical alternatives can be put forward that don't completely wreck people's lives, then we just have to trust the Government to manage the situation on our behalf.

I agree any government faces the weight of existing interests...and this government knows very well the NZ business community is allied to them and the backward conservative party that fronts them.

The science is becoming very clear.....and governments everywhere are struggling with the growing urgency alongside the billionaires' media spreading lies and propaganda in opposition.

Then there is reading comprehension......a real struggle for some.

My comment was rhetorical. IF people really understood.....they would....etc...and that is true. But as you rightly point out, we have painted ourselves into - and beyond - a corner...and will have to do the best we can. That much is obvious. That's not a license to delay or fuss about because the colour or shape of an EV isn't perfect. That speaks of a lack of understanding of the seriousness of the situation.....and leaving that to government is passive and negligent. We should know. Our votes should be informed by that knowledge. That's how the government we need gets elected and has a mandates for action.

But the bottom line is.....It's already too late to stop major change. Now we're just trying to stop an utter disaster 40-75 years from now. But that's like jumping out of a plane without a parachute....and isn't the view lovely for a time.........(though the conclusion won't be).

_____________________________________________________________________

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MarkH67

522 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 320

#2022180 25-May-2018 02:11

frednz:

If you are buying a "good" Nissan 30 kWh Leaf (if there is such a vehicle), there are several second-hand ones that are listed on TradeMe for more than $40,000 and a lot between $30,000 and $40,000. So, these vehicles cost a great deal more than 1/3 the price of a new one and their battery quality is under a cloud due to the "Flip the Fleet" research.

Similarly, there are lots of second-hand 40 kWh Leafs advertised for between $53,000 to $63,000, so I would far prefer to wait until I could I get an NZ-New 40 kWh Leaf at these prices! Or even better, buy a new 64 kWh Hyundai Kona later this year.

There really is peace of mind and manufacturer protection from buying NZ-New vehicles and I wouldn't like to currently own a used 30 kWh Leaf in light of the battery degradation research. And can such owners buy a new battery in NZ and if so what do they cost?

I think you are deliberately being selective on the trademe pricing. You can buy a 30kWh Leaf with a 36-month warranty for $25k https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/nissan/auction-1626390855.htm?rsqid=6e2e14cfdca5476d85a870deafbcb7d2

If you can afford to buy a brand new Kona 64kWh then I personally think that would be a great choice! You would get a much better range than a 30kWh Leaf has and in my opinion, it would make the car a lot more practical for longer journeys. I will suggest this option to my friend, if he buys one for his wife to commute to work in then they would save a large amount of money (100km each way = 1,000km per week = huge petrol & servicing costs currently).

I understand buyers hesitating on the 30kWh Leaf, there is currently a question mark hanging over that particular version. But if someone bought that Leaf from GVI with a 36-month warranty then the question would be "can you buy another battery in 4 or 5 or 6 years time if you need to? The answer is likely to be yes I think, not that I can see into the future.

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