Dirty Politics: Nicky Hager's New Book

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#1110227 18-Aug-2014 04:47

BarTender:
networkn:
BarTender:
networkn: National don't really need to smear Labour, Labour seem intent on ensuring they aren't in power again (Thankfully) for a long time by simply opposing for the sake of it. They seem lost and confused and internally conflicted. Hardly who I consider reasonable to ru(i)n a country.

To be honest I expected better from you, not sure why but I did.

If you have been living in a country where the national dialogue has been directed via a few vicious bloggers that then gets picked up main stream media then it's quite easy to believe exactly what you have said. However if you actually try and read what's going on across the political divide you would see there is a very clear negative narrative going on lead by Slater. Something I have seen well before the book came out, however the book does clear up the depths it goes to.

Education is the best weapon against ignorance. You of all people I would have thought would understand that. Sadly I am wrong.

Me of all people? Do we know each other?

My claims re Labour aren't based on what "a few bloggers" have reported, it's based on what is coming directly from Labour themselves.

Lets not talk about National Debt, How the NZ Economy has been going, That the housing bubble in Auckland has been getting worse and affordability is unobtainable for the vast majority of people to name just a few. Plus our growing deprivation with the rise of 3rd world disease among our most vulnerable.

In my view Bernard Hickey has it right that Personal Debt and climbing inflation are the biggest issue facing our country today, selling all the assets will just leave us all poorer now and well into the future.

But everything is going in the right direction right?

Unfortunately I have a feeling that although Nicky might have had the best of intentions I have a feeling that the discussion this election will end up being diverted away from discussions of substance such as policies towards he said, she said nonsense that basically means that voting will be akin to going to a playing pin the tail on the donkey.

Someone else noted in the thread about getting on the property ladder - part of the problem is that there has been a scramble to Auckland which has driven houses prices up; the only way to counter that is to encourage businesses and in turn those jobs to move out of Auckland down to Christchurch, Wellington etc. because these days with high speed telecommunications pretty much make the need to have ones head quarters in a big city something of the past - why not have a large call centre located in Dunedin? Why not have your business headquarters located in Wellington? maybe offer a tax cut - 10% business tax rate if you base yourself out of another city in NZ?

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'"

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#1110240 18-Aug-2014 08:20

So this morning I see that Slater goes on the offensive towards Kim Dotcom. The PM seizes on the one thing Hager has said was wrong but doesn't deny any of Collins other offensive stuff. Let's all focus on the source rather than the information. Watergate anyone?

MikeB4

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#1110244 18-Aug-2014 08:28

BarTender: So this morning I see that Slater goes on the offensive towards Kim Dotcom. The PM seizes on the one thing Hager has said was wrong but doesn't deny any of Collins other offensive stuff. Let's all focus on the source rather than the information. Watergate anyone?

Watergate?

Give me break.

jonathan18

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#1110258 18-Aug-2014 09:16

The argument being made here by some that this is just a distraction from what we should be discussing at election time - ie policies - is missing the bigger picture. Yes, policies should be the focus, but to suggest that matters that clearly raise significant concerns about:

the ethics and values of our politicians
the use of bloggers to do the 'dirty work' of political parties
the use of astro-turfing to manipulate public onion
digging for dirt to essentially blackmail people in public office...

shouldn't be investigated, discussed and debated in public, AND have an impact on the appropriateness of particular individuals to hold public office, is one screwed-up way of thinking. To do so is to argue that it doesn't matter what goes on behind closed doors as long as the policies are good, an untenable ostrich-like position.

Similarly, I agree with those that say the debate here (and more widely) has too often been coloured by the political leanings of the poster. This is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the debate, and I'm really disappointed that intelligent people appear to be unable to have a debate about the matters in hand without simply resorting to political positioning. Perhaps as I have a social science background this is more critical to me than others.

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#1110259 18-Aug-2014 09:16

KiwiNZ:
BarTender: So this morning I see that Slater goes on the offensive towards Kim Dotcom. The PM seizes on the one thing Hager has said was wrong but doesn't deny any of Collins other offensive stuff. Let's all focus on the source rather than the information. Watergate anyone?

Watergate?

Give me break.

While I don't believe it's as widespread and to the significance of Watergate. I do believe there is plenty more water to go under the bridge and denials to go on until further evidence is released.

Sill no denials of Collins emails to Slater including leaking of parliamentary services names while Collins was Minister of Police.. that then turn up on Slaters blogs. Yet the PM stay they were private communications. How is that not an admission?

Geektastic

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#1110273 18-Aug-2014 09:59

kawaii:
BarTender:
networkn:
BarTender:
networkn: National don't really need to smear Labour, Labour seem intent on ensuring they aren't in power again (Thankfully) for a long time by simply opposing for the sake of it. They seem lost and confused and internally conflicted. Hardly who I consider reasonable to ru(i)n a country.

To be honest I expected better from you, not sure why but I did.

If you have been living in a country where the national dialogue has been directed via a few vicious bloggers that then gets picked up main stream media then it's quite easy to believe exactly what you have said. However if you actually try and read what's going on across the political divide you would see there is a very clear negative narrative going on lead by Slater. Something I have seen well before the book came out, however the book does clear up the depths it goes to.

Education is the best weapon against ignorance. You of all people I would have thought would understand that. Sadly I am wrong.

Me of all people? Do we know each other?

My claims re Labour aren't based on what "a few bloggers" have reported, it's based on what is coming directly from Labour themselves.

Lets not talk about National Debt, How the NZ Economy has been going, That the housing bubble in Auckland has been getting worse and affordability is unobtainable for the vast majority of people to name just a few. Plus our growing deprivation with the rise of 3rd world disease among our most vulnerable.

In my view Bernard Hickey has it right that Personal Debt and climbing inflation are the biggest issue facing our country today, selling all the assets will just leave us all poorer now and well into the future.

But everything is going in the right direction right?

Unfortunately I have a feeling that although Nicky might have had the best of intentions I have a feeling that the discussion this election will end up being diverted away from discussions of substance such as policies towards he said, she said nonsense that basically means that voting will be akin to going to a playing pin the tail on the donkey.

Someone else noted in the thread about getting on the property ladder - part of the problem is that there has been a scramble to Auckland which has driven houses prices up; the only way to counter that is to encourage businesses and in turn those jobs to move out of Auckland down to Christchurch, Wellington etc. because these days with high speed telecommunications pretty much make the need to have ones head quarters in a big city something of the past - why not have a large call centre located in Dunedin? Why not have your business headquarters located in Wellington? maybe offer a tax cut - 10% business tax rate if you base yourself out of another city in NZ?

It's not unusual - the UK was using Regional Development Areas to attract business in the 70's and 80's by offering rates rebates and tax benefits etc etc. I remember a series of TV adverts propounding the 'Peterborough Effect' starring actor Roy Kinnear, for example. The EU does it on a wider scale as well to encourage international investment - and of course Ireland does it very successfully with a low tax regime.

The main problem is infrastructure. In an 'Auckland vs Somewhere else' SWOT analysis for locating a big business, nowhere beats Auckland. For example, Wellington has no proper international airport, lacks the internet infrastructure that Auckland has, has a higher likelihood of business interference due to earthquake, has a far smaller talent pool and so on. Once all your staff or potential staff are living in Auckland, moving becomes hard - and expensive if you offer decent relocation packages to staff as well.

We should really be trying to attract international corporate interest by offering low taxes and so on to businesses and their employees - we could become the Singapore of the South Pacific.

Geektastic

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#1110276 18-Aug-2014 10:08

jonathan18: The argument being made here by some that this is just a distraction from what we should be discussing at election time - ie policies - is missing the bigger picture. Yes, policies should be the focus, but to suggest that matters that clearly raise significant concerns about:

the ethics and values of our politicians
the use of bloggers to do the 'dirty work' of political parties
the use of astro-turfing to manipulate public onion
digging for dirt to essentially blackmail people in public office...
shouldn't be investigated, discussed and debated in public, AND have an impact on the appropriateness of particular individuals to hold public office, is one screwed-up way of thinking. To do so is to argue that it doesn't matter what goes on behind closed doors as long as the policies are good, an untenable ostrich-like position.

Similarly, I agree with those that say the debate here (and more widely) has too often been coloured by the political leanings of the poster. This is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the debate, and I'm really disappointed that intelligent people appear to be unable to have a debate about the matters in hand without simply resorting to political positioning. Perhaps as I have a social science background this is more critical to me than others.

Perhaps it is because I did not grow up here, but all those things are just part of normal politics in most places I can think of - that and much worse. I expect them, am not at all surprised by them and therefore am perfectly willing to ignore them. It amounts to nothing particularly serious in the overall scheme of things and all is fair in love and war - and politics.

The over-riding concern is the economic well being of NZ. I can't help but firmly believe National are better at that and frankly even if John Key were found to have taken out a contract with a hit man to get rid of Cunliffe I would still vote National. The economy is too important to allow what amounts to petty trivia to derail our economic performance which I happen to think has been pretty good when compared to many much bigger nations around the world. To change government because of this nonsense is truly throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

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Geektastic

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#1110281 18-Aug-2014 10:14

networkn:
JWR:
KiwiNZ: Both Hager and Slater and their ilk are trying to pervert the course of democracy by diverting attention from policies and candidate suitability.

No! Absolutely not!

Really? In the last 7 days how much space has been provided or dedicated to discussing the parties policies or intentions after the next election? How many pages has this thread used to discuss the same? Attention is being diverted from these issues
and all anyone is talking about is this book and the issues surrounding it.

It's pretty obvious that the book release was timed in order to achieve exactly this effect - because the left has no policies that are likely to win them the election, so they came up with another plan. Creating a distraction is political campaigning 101 when you can't get traction another way.

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#1110294 18-Aug-2014 10:47

Geektastic: Perhaps it is because I did not grow up here, but all those things are just part of normal politics in most places I can think of - that and much worse. I expect them, am not at all surprised by them and therefore am perfectly willing to ignore them. It amounts to nothing particularly serious in the overall scheme of things and all is fair in love and war - and politics.

The over-riding concern is the economic well being of NZ. I can't help but firmly believe National are better at that and frankly even if John Key were found to have taken out a contract with a hit man to get rid of Cunliffe I would still vote National. The economy is too important to allow what amounts to petty trivia to derail our economic performance which I happen to think has been pretty good when compared to many much bigger nations around the world. To change government because of this nonsense is truly throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Wow. Just wow. Lets all move to southern Italy since the mafia run things around here and I am ok with that.

Petty politics... I'm not sure if you would apply view if your name had been trashed in public or had death threats against you because your name had been posted on a blog site since you disagreed with the ruling elite.

But all's fair in love and war / politics so the ends justify the means. Now where have I heard that before?

Thank goodness we are not holding our chosen representatives to account or expect anything more than gutter politics. Long live the oligarchy.

Geektastic

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#1110317 18-Aug-2014 11:08

BarTender:
Geektastic: Perhaps it is because I did not grow up here, but all those things are just part of normal politics in most places I can think of - that and much worse. I expect them, am not at all surprised by them and therefore am perfectly willing to ignore them. It amounts to nothing particularly serious in the overall scheme of things and all is fair in love and war - and politics.

The over-riding concern is the economic well being of NZ. I can't help but firmly believe National are better at that and frankly even if John Key were found to have taken out a contract with a hit man to get rid of Cunliffe I would still vote National. The economy is too important to allow what amounts to petty trivia to derail our economic performance which I happen to think has been pretty good when compared to many much bigger nations around the world. To change government because of this nonsense is truly throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Wow. Just wow. Lets all move to southern Italy since the mafia run things around here and I am ok with that.

Petty politics... I'm not sure if you would apply view if your name had been trashed in public or had death threats against you because your name had been posted on a blog site since you disagreed with the ruling elite.

But all's fair in love and war / politics so the ends justify the means. Now where have I heard that before?

Thank goodness we are not holding our chosen representatives to account or expect anything more than gutter politics. Long live the oligarchy.

You miss my point - and take the hyperbole too literally.

My point being that much of this is just nonsense - people have death threats against them every day all over Twitter and Facebook if the media is to be believed - and for all kinds of ridiculous reasons. We had a known criminal gang member making death threats reported in our newspapers just last week, even.

Sure, I may not vote for John Key personally as my MP if there was a hit out on Cunliffe (although I would probably be more likely to offer a donation!) and presumably he would be on trial for same and therefore unable to stand in any case but that would not stop me voting for the party that I felt was best for the economy, which I regard as paramount.

A childish game of 'he leaked/she leaked' is intended only to distract from genuine debate - and it is working.

MikeB4

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#1110344 18-Aug-2014 11:20

Geektastic:
BarTender:
Geektastic: Perhaps it is because I did not grow up here, but all those things are just part of normal politics in most places I can think of - that and much worse. I expect them, am not at all surprised by them and therefore am perfectly willing to ignore them. It amounts to nothing particularly serious in the overall scheme of things and all is fair in love and war - and politics.

The over-riding concern is the economic well being of NZ. I can't help but firmly believe National are better at that and frankly even if John Key were found to have taken out a contract with a hit man to get rid of Cunliffe I would still vote National. The economy is too important to allow what amounts to petty trivia to derail our economic performance which I happen to think has been pretty good when compared to many much bigger nations around the world. To change government because of this nonsense is truly throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Wow. Just wow. Lets all move to southern Italy since the mafia run things around here and I am ok with that.

Petty politics... I'm not sure if you would apply view if your name had been trashed in public or had death threats against you because your name had been posted on a blog site since you disagreed with the ruling elite.

But all's fair in love and war / politics so the ends justify the means. Now where have I heard that before?

Thank goodness we are not holding our chosen representatives to account or expect anything more than gutter politics. Long live the oligarchy.

You miss my point - and take the hyperbole too literally.

My point being that much of this is just nonsense - people have death threats against them every day all over Twitter and Facebook if the media is to be believed - and for all kinds of ridiculous reasons. We had a known criminal gang member making death threats reported in our newspapers just last week, even.

Sure, I may not vote for John Key personally as my MP if there was a hit out on Cunliffe (although I would probably be more likely to offer a donation!) and presumably he would be on trial for same and therefore unable to stand in any case but that would not stop me voting for the party that I felt was best for the economy, which I regard as paramount.

A childish game of 'he leaked/she leaked' is intended only to distract from genuine debate - and it is working.

Yep, distracting from the real issues like the Greens dopey policy of lifting the top tax rate to 40% God help us if they get into a coalition, well good help the poor as unemployment will sky rocket.

ajobbins

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#1110365 18-Aug-2014 11:40

KiwiNZ: Yep, distracting from the real issues like the Greens dopey policy of lifting the top tax rate to 40% God help us if they get into a coalition, well good help the poor as unemployment will sky rocket.

What's wrong with a marginal tax rate of 40%? I pay 39% here in Oz and I'm not even on the top rate.

Twitter: ajobbins

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#1110372 18-Aug-2014 11:46

ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: Yep, distracting from the real issues like the Greens dopey policy of lifting the top tax rate to 40% God help us if they get into a coalition, well good help the poor as unemployment will sky rocket.

What's wrong with a marginal tax rate of 40%? I pay 39% here in Oz and I'm not even on the top rate.

And they are using the extra revenue from that and tax avoidance reduction to pay for reducing child poverty. The cheek of them trying to reduce the number children that end up in a cycle of poverty and into the justice system. That's crazy talk right there.

gzt

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#1110378 18-Aug-2014 11:56

The issues not directly related to the Hager book are off topic. These things about tax rates, regional economic development, etc, are all interesting issues but they are off topic and will derail the thread. This topic is not the place for it. Stop now. Thank you.

Edit: you can consider stopping earlier by using edit > delete on those posts ; )

old3eyes

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#1110424 18-Aug-2014 12:39

ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: Yep, distracting from the real issues like the Greens dopey policy of lifting the top tax rate to 40% God help us if they get into a coalition, well good help the poor as unemployment will sky rocket.

What's wrong with a marginal tax rate of 40%? I pay 39% here in Oz and I'm not even on the top rate.

But don't you get free medical care??

Regards,

Old3eyes

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