Chris Hipkins, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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#3104364 15-Jul-2023 13:04

Rikkitic:

I don't see why there could not be bilingual naming of government departments, at least for a transition period, but I also don't see why this issue generates so much passion. Fair enough if you don't like it so state your case and move on. There are bigger issues to get excited about here.

Exactly, yea. I generally would prefer the focus was on why we have a bunch of performative exercises at the Ministerial level while the organisations pursue policy settings which entrench and enable further issues within communities. It's the second bit that actually matters.

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#3104367 15-Jul-2023 13:10

Technofreak:
gzt: Those names have been used regularly by Maori celebrities and Maori media in general for over 30 years now and just became part of NZ lingo in general a lot of people grew up with on tv, and documented use before then of course. It doesn't bother me they are used interchangeably depending on the speaker.
Oh, really, I didn't realise that. Can you provide examples of regular use of these names going back that far?

It's not an easy one. There's no archive with searchable transcripts of tv shows. My personal recollection is the kids show "What Now?.

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#3104370 15-Jul-2023 13:21

tdgeek:

Your example is not a name change. Or by stealth. Its just and merely a recognition and embracement of our culture. Nothing more and nothing less.

I would agree with you if these names were used alongside the official name. Pretty well most of the time they are used, they are used on their own.

I'll give one example as to why I think this usage silly/wrong. New Zealand is a country where tourism is a major part of our economy. None of the maps, mapping apps etc use these names. When a tourist listens to the weather forecast which uses only Te Reo names how are they to know where each part of the forecast is for.

tdgeek:

But it does beg another question. There is a place for a conservative and progressive government. But its all starting to sound like an old white man mentality, where the less well off, the other gender, and culture are disenfranchised. Trump all over again. Am I suggesting that Luxon and National are like Trump? No, but its stealthily easing that way, particularly if ACT have an outstanding result this election. At least past old while men governments in NZ were just that. I still cant get over the raucous applause when get rid of those other names exceeded talk of fixing education in a recent event. Its getting to be a bit U.S. like, which is disappointing.

Was there raucous applause or was it just reported that way? Perhaps there was raucous applause. I wonder that the place names debate in this case was as much a lightning rod for a lot of things this government has done or has been perceived to have done. Things like race based health care access. There is no doubt the actions of this government has created division where there was no division previously.

I don't know about you but I've noticed a significant increase comments to articles on sites like Stuff and NZHerald where readers are quite disgruntled with the direction this government has taken the country. There's lot of small things that don't warrant comment on their own but when added together create an atmosphere where some people at least start to push back. I see the place names issue as an issue that has been commented on and has become a way of voicing discontent that also relates to a lot of other areas. Perhaps I'm wrong.

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#3104373 15-Jul-2023 13:30

tdgeek:

Its not about making/forcing/asking people to speak Maori. Its about recognising we are a dual culture country. Well some of us feel that way

Not sure how you have a dual language culture when you deliberately eschew either language to make a point; seems more like you're picking winners i.e. making a political decision.

Using both names together is going to help a hell of a lot people learn them more than a Te Reo name which has no easily accessible translation to the English equivalent.

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#3104382 15-Jul-2023 14:12

GV27:

Not sure how you have a dual language culture when you deliberately eschew either language to make a point; seems more like you're picking winners i.e. making a political decision.

Using both names together is going to help a hell of a lot people learn them more than a Te Reo name which has no easily accessible translation to the English equivalent.

If you are referring to media that only uses Maori names, thats a fair point. In my daily life I come across names used solely such as mahi. I know what mahi means (now) so no issue. Its not like everywhere you go its all in the Maori language. Its snippets, what are now common words, sometimes some people intermix them. Its just a little part of our culture that is a little bit more visible than it once was. I cant recall being stumped or baffled or hamstrung in everyday life when Maori words are used. Well, one user here uses Maori words a lot, so I did Google any I didn't know. Great, know that now, cool. Again, all we are seeing are snippets of Maori culture, as in part of New Zealand's culture.

EDIT

We aren't in a dual language culture. Some do speak it, some are learning it.

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#3104387 15-Jul-2023 14:22

Technofreak:

I would agree with you if these names were used alongside the official name. Pretty well most of the time they are used, they are used on their own.

I'll give one example as to why I think this usage silly/wrong. New Zealand is a country where tourism is a major part of our economy. None of the maps, mapping apps etc use these names. When a tourist listens to the weather forecast which uses only Te Reo names how are they to know where each part of the forecast is for.

I think I recall a weather forecast on TV that only used Maori place names. Its uncommon as far as I can tell. But its a map so not a problem. Radio? I dont listen to radio, I imagine a tourist would use apps or TV. Yes, I do see the point for tourists, but how widespread is Maori only? If I was a tourist I would probably think, thats cool, nice to see embracement of the other culture in the country. English dominates by a very wide margin.

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ezbee

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#3104445 15-Jul-2023 16:51

I do wonder if arguments from USA about Spanish signage are being recycled by certain groups.

Many coutries have multilingual signage even for languages of foreign origin.
Japan has a lot of dual Japanese English.

https://www.japannihon.com/are-there-english-signs-in-japan/

Of course there are then these...
Funny English Signs in Japan, Lost in Translation. 日本の面白い英語のサイン.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6cBIWaMnA4&t=15s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6cBIWaMnA4&t=15s

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#3104457 15-Jul-2023 18:01

ezbee:

I do wonder if arguments from USA about Spanish signage are being recycled by certain groups.

Many coutries have multilingual signage even for languages of foreign origin.
Japan has a lot of dual Japanese English.

https://www.japannihon.com/are-there-english-signs-in-japan/

Of course there are then these...
Funny English Signs in Japan, Lost in Translation. 日本の面白い英語のサイン.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6cBIWaMnA4&t=15s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6cBIWaMnA4&t=15s

Not sure. Ive spent quite a bit of time in the US. SoCal, most low income employees speak Spanish. Houston airport (IAH), hop onto the monorail and half the guide is English half is Spanish) Thats ok, and given that Spanish is basically Mexican, not the indigenous population. Well...

I HATE the word indigenous.

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#3104485 15-Jul-2023 18:45

rdgeek. I HATE the word indigenous.

That's a strong statement?

tdgeek

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#3104499 15-Jul-2023 20:04

gzt:
rdgeek. I HATE the word indigenous.

That's a strong statement?

Maori. Who was here when us whites arrived. Aborigine, who were in Australis 40,000 years ago. So, they are Maori's or Aborigine's. Why do we call them indigenous?

I guess its a PC thing in todays "modern" world. What is wrong with European, Maori, Aborigine? Why call the latter "indigenous"? Strikes me as a means to ignore the correct noun. Borderline racist if you ask me, or at best, a failure to acknowledge an ethnicity. May as well say non-white.

Technofreak

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#3104506 15-Jul-2023 20:47

tdgeek:

Technofreak:

I would agree with you if these names were used alongside the official name. Pretty well most of the time they are used, they are used on their own.

I'll give one example as to why I think this usage silly/wrong. New Zealand is a country where tourism is a major part of our economy. None of the maps, mapping apps etc use these names. When a tourist listens to the weather forecast which uses only Te Reo names how are they to know where each part of the forecast is for.

I think I recall a weather forecast on TV that only used Maori place names. Its uncommon as far as I can tell. But its a map so not a problem. Radio? I dont listen to radio, I imagine a tourist would use apps or TV. Yes, I do see the point for tourists, but how widespread is Maori only? If I was a tourist I would probably think, thats cool, nice to see embracement of the other culture in the country. English dominates by a very wide margin.

Our media experience is quite different. I watch very little TV and very rarely ever see the weather on TV yet I regularly get one sometimes two serves of the weather on my commute to/from work where I hear the Te Reo place names and wonder about the value to visitors. A lot of tourists are in campervans with no TV.

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#3104507 15-Jul-2023 20:47

tdgeek:

Maori. Who was here when us whites arrived. Aborigine, who were in Australis 40,000 years ago. So, they are Maori's or Aborigine's. Why do we call them indigenous?

I guess its a PC thing in todays "modern" world. What is wrong with European, Maori, Aborigine? Why call the latter "indigenous"? Strikes me as a means to ignore the correct noun. Borderline racist if you ask me, or at best, a failure to acknowledge an ethnicity. May as well say non-white.

Indigenous just means original inhabitants, as in we were here first. I don't see it as racist or demeaning in any way, but of course I am not indigenous.

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#3104511 15-Jul-2023 20:57

Rikkitic:

Indigenous just means original inhabitants, as in we were here first. I don't see it as racist or demeaning in any way, but of course I am not indigenous.

Im not saying its racist, but I'd like to know why we use the term. In Australia its THE term to use. If I was an Aborigine, Id like to be called that

Technofreak

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#3104512 15-Jul-2023 20:59

tdgeek:

Maori. Who was here when us whites arrived. Aborigine, who were in Australis 40,000 years ago. So, they are Maori's or Aborigine's. Why do we call them indigenous?

I guess its a PC thing in todays "modern" world. What is wrong with European, Maori, Aborigine? Why call the latter "indigenous"? Strikes me as a means to ignore the correct noun. Borderline racist if you ask me, or at best, a failure to acknowledge an ethnicity. May as well say non-white.

I don't have a problem with the word indigenous. It refers to the original occupiers of that land or country. Someone can be European, Maori, or any other ethnicity, but not necessarily be indigenous because of where they are living. Then again they may well be indigenous in another location. A European living in England who's forebears lived there from time immemorial would be an indigenous person, whereas a Maori living in thr UK would not be indigenous.

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tdgeek

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#3104513 15-Jul-2023 20:59

Technofreak:

Our media experience is quite different. I watch very little TV and very rarely ever see the weather on TV yet I regularly get one sometimes two serves of the weather on my commute to/from work where I hear the Te Reo place names and wonder about the value to visitors. A lot of tourists are in campervans with no TV.

Fair enough. You are a pilot I assume, so your take on weather is far more critical than mine, so I accept what you say. That does need reviewing

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