Chris Hipkins, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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Awrrr
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#3111936 4-Aug-2023 21:11

Technofreak:

As far as I'm concerned the Greens are just a front for socialist policies and at their extremes eco-terrorists.

What do you mean by 'socialist policies'? Many European countries operate with socialist policies and they are at least as democratic as we are. This is more of an American pejorative buzzword than a meaningful description.

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Technofreak

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#3111986 4-Aug-2023 22:32

Rikkitic:

Technofreak:

As far as I'm concerned the Greens are just a front for socialist policies and at their extremes eco-terrorists.

What do you mean by 'socialist policies'? Many European countries operate with socialist policies and they are at least as democratic as we are. This is more of an American pejorative buzzword than a meaningful description.

Where the government takes your money then gives you back what they consider you need. Things like the Wealth Tax and a UBI for starters. These policies have nothing to do with being "Green" or helping the environment. They are purely out and out socialist policies. So, No, not a buzzword either.

Agreed, there are many democratic socialist European countries. I wasn't questioning the Greens democractic principles.

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Rikkitic

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#3112015 5-Aug-2023 09:25

Nothing wrong with the government taking your money if what they give back is worthwhile. The Danes recently emerged from a survey as the happiest people on earth. I object to the American demonisation of socialism as something bad. It doesn't have to be.

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Technofreak

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#3112023 5-Aug-2023 09:49

Rikkitic: Nothing wrong with the government taking your money if what they give back is worthwhile. The Danes recently emerged from a survey as the happiest people on earth. I object to the American demonisation of socialism as something bad. It doesn't have to be.

Other than paying taxes for necessary services and infrastructure which should be or needs to be provided for the betterment of all I'd far sooner decide how best my money is spent for me and my my dependants. Governments don't have good track record of spending money wisely.

Perhaps the Danes are predisposed to socialism. The big thing is it has to be paid for somehow, which means the money has to be earned somewhere.

I'm pretty sure I could come up with a survey where New Zealanders are the happiest people on earth. My point being surveys can be designed to get whatever outcome you desire.

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johno1234

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#3112056 5-Aug-2023 12:20

Rikkitic: Nothing wrong with the government taking your money if what they give back is worthwhile. The Danes recently emerged from a survey as the happiest people on earth. I object to the American demonisation of socialism as something bad. It doesn't have to be.

This is it in a nutshell.

We have extremely poor competence in the left wing political cohort. Both cohorts Reilly but particularly the left. Look at the backgrounds of most of them. Their experience mostly consists of being students of communications or polsci, followed by union or political party employment. Very few business owners, professionals, farmers and so on. The current hostility to non conformist thought and associated cancel culture is entrenching this incompetence as questioning voices are brutally rejected.

I bet the Danish socialists offer a much wider cross section.

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#3112058 5-Aug-2023 12:27

johno1234:

I bet the Danish socialists offer a much wider cross section.

I don't know but I bet you are right. I am so disappointed in the quality of our politicians on both sides that I simply can't bring myself to vote for anyone. All I can do is vote against the ones I most dislike. For that reason I will be reluctantly voting Greens again, if I can drag myself to vote at all. Why Greens? They are no more incompetent than anyone else and at least they pay lip service to good causes.

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#3112074 5-Aug-2023 14:13

Rikkitic:

johno1234:

I bet the Danish socialists offer a much wider cross section.

I don't know but I bet you are right. I am so disappointed in the quality of our politicians on both sides that I simply can't bring myself to vote for anyone. All I can do is vote against the ones I most dislike. For that reason I will be reluctantly voting Greens again, if I can drag myself to vote at all. Why Greens? They are no more incompetent than anyone else and at least they pay lip service to good causes.

Pretty sure looking from the outside that the natural home of an economic progressive voter these days is either TOP or TPM but with the latter you are going to get a whole lot of extra stuff that you may or not like. The Greens have been wrecked by internecine internal warfare. I'm sure once they eventually get destroyed at the polls (not this election cycle unfortunately) they will rebuild and do what it says on the label. I don't personally know anyone who doesn't care about the environment so it takes a special kind of stupid to ruin an environmentalist party. Looking at you Marama "white CIS males are the cause of all violence" Davidson.

Technofreak

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#3112083 5-Aug-2023 14:54

One thing the government is on the right path with.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300942897/live-government-reveals-latest-defence-and-national-security-policy

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/threat-of-chinas-pacific-presence-driving-new-zealands-new-defence-and-national-security-strategy/XJC4Z4TJXJAY3I4BOUSHUSK7OE/

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shk292

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#3112653 7-Aug-2023 10:11

Technofreak:

One thing the government is on the right path with.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300942897/live-government-reveals-latest-defence-and-national-security-policy

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/threat-of-chinas-pacific-presence-driving-new-zealands-new-defence-and-national-security-strategy/XJC4Z4TJXJAY3I4BOUSHUSK7OE/

And predictably enough, the Greens disagree:

Green Party MP Golriz Ghahraman believed enhancing Pacific resilience was not done best through a defence lens.

“It’s a very outdated response in the modern context, to think that falling into old defence allegiances and a defence prism to look at global affairs is still valid.

“It’s going to drive the Pacific away from us.”

You'd think that the events of the last 18 months would amply show the need to be in a strong partnership against the threat of dictatorial regimes. But no, not if you're Green

ockel

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#3112729 7-Aug-2023 11:06

Technofreak:

A case it's s good idea but we can't be seen to agree with the opposition?

Every party except Labour was in favour of the amendment.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/emotions-boil-over-as-national-accuses-labour-of-petty-politics-in-killing-paid-parental-leave-changes/2DGO65DJ55GCFGHMQC6R4UAF7E/

Seems a bit petulant to me.

The normally red-flag waving Tova O'Brien states the same thing. And points out:

"World Health Organisation also recommends

-banning alcohol advertising,

-tougher vaping regulations,

-free mammogram screening for women from 40

None of which the government is doing"

That would be the same WHO that told countries not to close borders during COVID. Everyone listened really carefully to that too.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300943389/tova-obrien-are-we-seeing-a-return-of-the-labour-nanny-state--quite-literally

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#3113068 8-Aug-2023 08:06

Rikkitic: Nothing wrong with the government taking your money if what they give back is worthwhile. The Danes recently emerged from a survey as the happiest people on earth. I object to the American demonisation of socialism as something bad. It doesn't have to be.

Everything is wrong with the Govt taking your money and deciding what they think is worthwhile. What motivation is there for success if you don't reap the rewards of your effort?

What committee decides "whats worthwhile" - goodbye anything that is deemed unnecessary by some bureaucrat, goodbye innovation and goodbye any meaningful wealth / investment in the country.

1000% wrong

The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other peoples money to spend.....

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GV27

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#3113071 8-Aug-2023 08:21

johno1234:

Pretty sure looking from the outside that the natural home of an economic progressive voter these days is either TOP or TPM but with the latter you are going to get a whole lot of extra stuff that you may or not like. The Greens have been wrecked by internecine internal warfare. I'm sure once they eventually get destroyed at the polls (not this election cycle unfortunately) they will rebuild and do what it says on the label. I don't personally know anyone who doesn't care about the environment so it takes a special kind of stupid to ruin an environmentalist party. Looking at you Marama "white CIS males are the cause of all violence" Davidson.

TOP's land tax policy has some drawbacks that I don't think I've seen anyone really acknowledge or offer a solution too, which is that Aucklanders would be lumped with the burden of a universally-costed tax on land at far higher values but still get the same dollar-for-dollar tax relief designed to offset it as any other part of the country. It's hard not to see it as a massive tax on Auckland that would just result on outflows to the rest of the country at the expense of people living in the 09.

TPM: The less said the better. Good luck figuring out how first right of refusal over private land is going to work with apartments.

Rikkitic

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#3113072 8-Aug-2023 08:28

GV27:

johno1234:

Pretty sure looking from the outside that the natural home of an economic progressive voter these days is either TOP or TPM but with the latter you are going to get a whole lot of extra stuff that you may or not like. The Greens have been wrecked by internecine internal warfare. I'm sure once they eventually get destroyed at the polls (not this election cycle unfortunately) they will rebuild and do what it says on the label. I don't personally know anyone who doesn't care about the environment so it takes a special kind of stupid to ruin an environmentalist party. Looking at you Marama "white CIS males are the cause of all violence" Davidson.

TOP's land tax policy has some drawbacks that I don't think I've seen anyone really acknowledge or offer a solution too, which is that Aucklanders would be lumped with the burden of a universally-costed tax on land at far higher values but still get the same dollar-for-dollar tax relief designed to offset it as any other part of the country. It's hard not to see it as a massive tax on Auckland that would just result on outflows to the rest of the country at the expense of people living in the 09.

TPM: The less said the better. Good luck figuring out how first right of refusal over private land is going to work with apartments.

A problem with our 5% system is that any vote for a party that doesn't meet the threshold is wasted unless the party wins an electorate seat. Why bother voting if my vote is just going to be binned?

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#3113074 8-Aug-2023 08:35

Rikkitic:

A problem with our 5% system is that any vote for a party that doesn't meet the threshold is wasted unless the party wins an electorate seat. Why bother voting if my vote is just going to be binned?

Many of the minor parties started as statistically irrelevant. Until enough people got sick of the regular big parties and took a chance on them.

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#3113075 8-Aug-2023 08:36

IMO, if you don't cast a vote then you have no right to criticise any party.

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