Sex toys and Waitangi Day - Whats your take on the flip flopping day.

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Networkn
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#1487064 7-Feb-2016 16:58

Rikkitic:

networkn:

Lots of us "give a damn" but are busy supporting those who don't work so they can protest, by going to work and earning money on which we pay tax.

You are too intelligent to believe that reactionary crap. Most protesters are just ordinary people with ordinary occupations. Nearly anyone who wants to badly enough, can find a way to get time off work for something that matters to them.

If I marched for everything I cared about, I wouldn't be able to work a full week, call that "crap" if you want, but that is the reality.

MikeB4

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#1487091 7-Feb-2016 17:22

Rikkitic:
MikeB4:

I don't believe rent a mob care about the issue(s) they just care about protesting and being disruptive and unlawful.

OK, the 'rent-a-mob' label has been tossed around by the PM and the media and others and now you. So what do you really mean by this? Are you talking about a particular group of people? What are their identifying characteristics -- race, hair length, slogans, loudness of vocalisation? Who are you referring to? How many? Is it a dozen well-known individuals? A hundred? the thousands behind them? Who is renting the mob? Where does the money come from? What number can I ring to rent one?

Labels like this are just that -- empty labels -- until you define them and give them meaning. Otherwise you are just parroting a mindless phrase someone has taught you. I think that is dangerous and deceptive. When you start labeling people, you make it easy to stop thinking of them as people. Point out the individuals in your rent-a-mob and tell me who and what they are. Are they just people marching in a demonstration you don't approve of? If so, then shame on you for not giving them more credit. Are they hooligans crashing and burning as they go? Then they should be condemned as individuals, but don't lump them all into a mob unless all are behaving that way (which I don't happen to believe). Such unjustified offhand use of labels like this is just cheap politics, as practised by some who should know better and who certainly should not demean the dignity of their office by stooping to such pejorative name-calling.

Two of the leading professional protesters are Ms Sue Bradford and Mr Minto

Edit; I don't parrot mindless stuff I actually have a brain.

turnin

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#1487093 7-Feb-2016 17:24

scuwp:
SJB:

Counting protesters is a poor way of judging public opinion unless you get very large crowds which the Auckland protests clearly weren't.

Why don't the anti TPPA lobby get their act together and force a referendum on the issue by getting the required number of signatures on a petition (is it 300,000?).

I know referendums aren't binding but the result would give a much better indication of how much opposition there actually is. And no pushing, shoving, disruption etc involved.

The agreement will be ratified here irrespective of the level of protest.

Nice idea. But other than being a complete waste of money, I doubt the common man knows enough details of the TPPA to make a rational well considered judgement. Most will be led by misinformed selective opinions and rhetoric, much like the protesters, whom without exception (at least those that made the news anyway) clearly didn't have a clue about the actual details of the TPPA.

As I said earlier The 200 or so individuals at the front of the march were probably less able to articulate their positions on the tpp point by point but I'm not seeing any evidence their basic understanding of it is incorrect.

The document has been analysed by experts that the govt has tried very hard to paint as radicals , such as Kelsey , Auckland university law professor. Like it or not the most qualified player on the field. You ll notice her opposition is made up of intellectuals such as Mike Hosking et al.

Independent analysis in other countries arrives at the same conclusion, countries WILL be held liable for law changes they make and the level of that liability will be determined by a panel of industry representatives forming a court that has no appeal process what so ever.
So what part of the protestors statements do you think is misinformed ?

BarTender

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#1487095 7-Feb-2016 17:26

Rikkitic:
scuwp:
Nice idea. But other than being a complete waste of money, I doubt the common man knows enough details of the TPPA to make a rational well considered judgement. Most will be led by misinformed selective opinions and rhetoric, much like the protesters, whom without exception (at least those that made the news anyway) clearly didn't have a clue about the actual details of the TPPA.
Still no reason to deny them a voice, unless you happen to believe only the landed gentry should be entitled to vote.

I agree here. It all depends on where you consumed your news from.
If you watch Checkpoint on RNZ or if you watched TV1/3 you could be mistaken that the protests were in completely different cities.
I never saw the full crowd shot showing the full 20k or so on tv1 or 3.. or perhaps I just missed that.
RNZ is doing a far better job of journalism to cover the issues I care about.

MikeB4

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#1487097 7-Feb-2016 17:32

BarTender:
Rikkitic:
scuwp:
Nice idea. But other than being a complete waste of money, I doubt the common man knows enough details of the TPPA to make a rational well considered judgement. Most will be led by misinformed selective opinions and rhetoric, much like the protesters, whom without exception (at least those that made the news anyway) clearly didn't have a clue about the actual details of the TPPA.
Still no reason to deny them a voice, unless you happen to believe only the landed gentry should be entitled to vote.

I agree here. It all depends on where you consumed your news from.
If you watch Checkpoint on RNZ or if you watched TV1/3 you could be mistaken that the protests were in completely different cities.
I never saw the full crowd shot showing the full 20k or so on tv1 or 3.. or perhaps I just missed that.
RNZ is doing a far better job of journalism to cover the issues I care about.

20k? I doubt there wast many from what we saw trying to get through Auckland that morning there would have been maybe 2k tops

BarTender

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#1487103 7-Feb-2016 17:45

MikeB4:
BarTender:
Rikkitic:

scuwp:

Nice idea. But other than being a complete waste of money, I doubt the common man knows enough details of the TPPA to make a rational well considered judgement. Most will be led by misinformed selective opinions and rhetoric, much like the protesters, whom without exception (at least those that made the news anyway) clearly didn't have a clue about the actual details of the TPPA.
Still no reason to deny them a voice, unless you happen to believe only the landed gentry should be entitled to vote.

I agree here. It all depends on where you consumed your news from.
If you watch Checkpoint on RNZ or if you watched TV1/3 you could be mistaken that the protests were in completely different cities.
I never saw the full crowd shot showing the full 20k or so on tv1 or 3.. or perhaps I just missed that.
RNZ is doing a far better job of journalism to cover the issues I care about.

20k? I doubt there wast many from what we saw trying to get through Auckland that morning there would have been maybe 2k tops

Looks a bit more than 2k if you ask me.

Dingbatt

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#1487106 7-Feb-2016 17:55

15 abreast and about 160 rows, so you're right, about 2400.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Dynamike

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#1487117 7-Feb-2016 18:16

turnin: ...The document has been analysed by experts that the govt has tried very hard to paint as radicals , such as Kelsey , Auckland university law professor. Like it or not the most qualified player on the field...

From Wikipedia: "Jane Kelsey ... is actively involved in researching and speaking out against the World Trade Organisation, the International Monetary Fund, free trade and corporate-led globalisation."

To portray her as an impartial expert is being dishonest.

Rikkitic

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#1487118 7-Feb-2016 18:21

MikeB4:

Two of the leading professional protesters are Ms Sue Bradford and Mr Minto

That's two if them, then. What's the story on the other 20,000?

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

turnin

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#1487119 7-Feb-2016 18:24

BarTender:
Rikkitic:
scuwp:
Nice idea. But other than being a complete waste of money, I doubt the common man knows enough details of the TPPA to make a rational well considered judgement. Most will be led by misinformed selective opinions and rhetoric, much like the protesters, whom without exception (at least those that made the news anyway) clearly didn't have a clue about the actual details of the TPPA.
Still no reason to deny them a voice, unless you happen to believe only the landed gentry should be entitled to vote.

I agree here. It all depends on where you consumed your news from.
If you watch Checkpoint on RNZ or if you watched TV1/3 you could be mistaken that the protests were in completely different cities.
I never saw the full crowd shot showing the full 20k or so on tv1 or 3.. or perhaps I just missed that.
RNZ is doing a far better job of journalism to cover the issues I care about.

Totally agree, you didn't miss the photos of the full crowd, they were never shown.
Radio New Zealand seem to be the only news agency in the country that can cover any story properly. Can you ever imagine Mike Hosking covering this ..http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/2587118

turnin

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#1487122 7-Feb-2016 18:35

Dynamike:
turnin: ...The document has been analysed by experts that the govt has tried very hard to paint as radicals , such as Kelsey , Auckland university law professor. Like it or not the most qualified player on the field...

From Wikipedia: "Jane Kelsey ... is actively involved in researching and speaking out against the World Trade Organisation, the International Monetary Fund, free trade and corporate-led globalisation."

To portray her as an impartial expert is being dishonest.

Actually I didn't portray her as impartial , I said she was the most qualified.

Wikipedia is edited by anyone, including the likes of Cameron Slater and we know ( in fact check the rnz link in the last post I made) that parties are indeed posting on wikipedia with the intention of smearing.

One might question though, what is really in it for her ?
I doubt its lobbying money. Lobbying money is going the other way , from corporates to governments.

I don't see that democracies really allow the flexibility to be governed by corporate-led globalisation, do you ?

Her analysis is critiqued by others at the University and internationally and (AFAIK) by the law society. I've not seen any glaring errors since the release of the document.

MikeB4

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#1487123 7-Feb-2016 18:39

Rikkitic:
MikeB4:

Two of the leading professional protesters are Ms Sue Bradford and Mr Minto

That's two if them, then. What's the story on the other 20,000?

It was not 20,000 that would be the population of Masterton district or Whangaparaora in one place. The trouble makers were the usual hard core. We could see many leaving the March as the crap started. But playing with unconfirmed figured is pointless

turnin

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#1487127 7-Feb-2016 18:50

Dingbatt: 15 abreast and about 160 rows, so you're right, about 2400.

15 x160 rows ? Count again.
I'd say closer to 500 rows
You want to use Image J to work it out , there is a people counter plug in for it.

Rikkitic

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#1487145 7-Feb-2016 19:11

MikeB4:

It was not 20,000 that would be the population of Masterton district or Whangaparaora in one place. The trouble makers were the usual hard core. We could see many leaving the March as the crap started. But playing with unconfirmed figured is pointless

Agreed. But there were a lot of people in the street. I don't think that can be disputed. So some pushed to the front, started making trouble, then melted away, if I have it correctly. Those must have been the 'rent-a-mob'. I guess that means the 99% who stayed were the genuine protesters. So why not say, 99% of the many people in that large demonstration were genuine protesters expressing a legitimate concern in a lawful manner, instead of saying, that demonstration was just a rent-a-mob of trouble-makers? The former statement is certainly more accurate than the latter one.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Dingbatt

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#1487171 7-Feb-2016 20:12

turnin:
Dingbatt: 15 abreast and about 160 rows, so you're right, about 2400.

15 x160 rows ? Count again.
I'd say closer to 500 rows
You want to use Image J to work it out , there is a people counter plug in for it.

Sorry you have misinterpreted my quick assessment for an interest in the actual crowd size. So you are wrong, I don't want to use Image J, even with its people counter plugin :-)

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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