Bombing at Manchester concert, 19 dead

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#1787721 24-May-2017 19:34

Geektastic:

I'm not sure we have the same definition of "Englishman".

He may have a British passport but that isn't the same thing to many of us.

If you have a British passport, you're a Brit.

Batman

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#1787722 24-May-2017 19:48

BTR:

This is going to sound horrible but when you mix races and religions together this is what happens. I feel sorry for those countries who are forcing their citizens to accept the huge amounts of "refuges" flooding there countries and when these people don't fit in with society they get angry and all hell breaks loose.

There are a lot of turkish citizens claiming to be refugees and treating being in Europe as a holiday as there are no border checks in place. The whole situation is only going to get worse and its going to take extreme methods to get it under control that probably will seem racist.

Its a mess and religion is the primary cause whether you want to admit it or not.

Let me separate a couple of things here folks.

1. Religion is NOT the problem. Religion is apparently is "The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power". You have all kinds of people believing all kinds of things, some people believe in gods and some people believe in the universe. That has nothing to do with mass murder. If you wear an old sock because that could make you win a cricket match you're religious. If you touch wood you're religious!

2. Now, say you sign with Adidas. And you go and beat up your wife. What does Adidas do? They condemn the act. They go on TV and publish all over that they condemn the act and cut ties with you.

Now say you're a something and you blow up yourself along with a few hundred kids. I have never heard the world governing body of that something, go on TV and condemn the act. Never. Not once. Maybe some dude sheepishly agrees it's not a good idea. Saying that they don't teach that kind of stuff in brick lane. That's not right.

There IS a difference.

Unfortunately, the world governing body of something has just bought 100 billion USD of something from some other guy who wants apparently wants to stop similar things ... so you see the problem there? I do. It's not your refugee friend that's gone berserk. It's your friendly principal who is friends with the bullies here. Has always been. Before this Hillary's company was apparently selling weapons to the same people. America is the problem. And it doesn't matter who's in charge. Just so someone can make a few bucks. They really don't care.

[This is just one example of America causing issues. Don't get me started on them installing and then dismantling regimes like their company office.]

surfisup1000

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#1787758 24-May-2017 20:13

joker97:

Let me separate a couple of things here folks.

1. Religion is NOT the problem. Religion is apparently is "The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power". You have all kinds of people believing all kinds of things, some people believe in gods and some people believe in the universe. That has nothing to do with mass murder. If you wear an old sock because that could make you win a cricket match you're religious. If you touch wood you're religious!

The following definition is right below the definition you googled...

"a particular system of faith and worship"

The islam faith requires followers to kill infidels, kill LGBT people, kill rape victims, etc, etc.

Some people who call themselves 'moderate' islamics, and publicly condemn these acts of murder but I bet many are quite joyous and donating to groups that finance atrocities.

You should watch the ITV documentary 'Uncovering saudi', or something like that. Kids are taught to hate me and you in the name of islam.

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#1787773 24-May-2017 20:29

surfisup1000:

joker97:

Let me separate a couple of things here folks.

1. Religion is NOT the problem. Religion is apparently is "The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power". You have all kinds of people believing all kinds of things, some people believe in gods and some people believe in the universe. That has nothing to do with mass murder. If you wear an old sock because that could make you win a cricket match you're religious. If you touch wood you're religious!

The following definition is right below the definition you googled...

"a particular system of faith and worship"

The islam faith requires followers to kill infidels, kill LGBT people, kill rape victims, etc, etc.

Some people who call themselves 'moderate' islamics, and publicly condemn these acts of murder but I bet many are quite joyous and donating to groups that finance atrocities.

You should watch the ITV documentary 'Uncovering saudi', or something like that. Kids are taught to hate me and you in the name of islam.

You are saying Islam is the problem. That's different from Religion is the problem.

I do not disagree with what you've said ... But guess who's Saudi's BFF?

[I've worked with people who've lived in Saudi - they do despicable acts to anyone they like. Like rape their slaves, etc. I do not live inside the Kiwi bubble. Wake up, eat porridge, go to work, come home, drink beer and watch rugby, life is good!]

fizzychicken

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#1787775 24-May-2017 20:33

Geektastic:

frankv:

Geektastic:

I'm not sure we have the same definition of "Englishman".

He may have a British passport but that isn't the same thing to many of us.

Perhaps you could define for us what an "Englishman" is?

My personal definition? Your family needs to have been there in 1945.

Did England begin in 1945?

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surfisup1000

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#1787789 24-May-2017 20:41

joker97:

You are saying Islam is the problem. That's different from Religion is the problem.

I do not disagree with what you've said ... But guess who's Saudi's BFF?

Sorry, I have not been following the entire thread and don't quite get your point .

Islam is an religion with many followers who perform evil acts as required by the rules of that religion.

Religion seems to bestow special authority on followers to commit evil acts in the name of that religion . Even where those acts are illegal. So, I would say religion is an enabler which causes problems.

Thankfully most modern religions are fairly benign.

Batman

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#1787790 24-May-2017 20:42

fizzychicken:

Geektastic:

frankv:

Geektastic:

I'm not sure we have the same definition of "Englishman".

He may have a British passport but that isn't the same thing to many of us.

Perhaps you could define for us what an "Englishman" is?

My personal definition? Your family needs to have been there in 1945.

Did England begin in 1945?

And, it's not 1945. Times have changed.

If everything works like it were 1945 then when you get sick go to the local infirmary and drink some tonic and get the priest.

Instead, nowadays the Englishman would listen to a Japanese invented sound playing machine, drive a Japanese car to work, eat his Japanese rice-fish thing with his business partner from China, change back to his Chinese made clothes, go home to his German made house, turn on his Korean made TV to play on his Japanese invented video game.

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Fred99

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#1787821 24-May-2017 21:31

surfisup1000:

The islam faith requires followers to kill infidels, kill LGBT people, kill rape victims, etc, etc.

With a comment like that made "for political purposes", you need to refer to the bible. Here's an annotated version highlighting the stupidity, hatred, intolerance, violence:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm

Lias

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#1787831 24-May-2017 23:00

dafman:

Probably because total war where entire cities, tribes, countries, or religions are wiped out would entail significant innocent casualties. And that would require a western world as evil as the evil it was fighting against.

That's kind of the definition of total war, that there is no such thing as a civilian, or an innocent, you simply kill everything not on your side by any means possible to achieve victory.

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Batman

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#1787834 24-May-2017 23:21

surfisup1000:

joker97:

You are saying Islam is the problem. That's different from Religion is the problem.

I do not disagree with what you've said ... But guess who's Saudi's BFF?

Sorry, I have not been following the entire thread and don't quite get your point .

Islam is an religion with many followers who perform evil acts as required by the rules of that religion.

Religion seems to bestow special authority on followers to commit evil acts in the name of that religion . Even where those acts are illegal. So, I would say religion is an enabler which causes problems.

Thankfully most modern religions are fairly benign.

I don't understand how "religion" can "seem to bestow special authority" to do "illegal acts". Is the Mongrel Mob a religion? Is the CIA a religion? Are American soldiers a religion? What about Pol Pot and Mao Zedong - they are religions too? Are bullies at school part of some bully religion?

So you have a group of people told to do bad things. People do bad things. Whether you're a scientist, a religious person or a religious scientist - it has absolutely zero bearing on whether you'd do bad things.

I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me, so let's leave this at that.

But what I do want to point out:

You cannot stop people believing things.

People believe what they want to believe. You can believe that electric cars will save polar bears, so those who believe it that will buy electric cars obviously. Some people believe out of nothing came matter, space and time. They go round ridiculing those who, actually, also believe that out of nothing came matter, space and time, too! How bizarre.

Anyway, You cannot go and ban ideologies. Not in this day and age. In the past you could gather everyone you don't like and lock them up in the mental hospital, or build a wall. Unless you are Putin, China, or Kim Jong Un. THen, maybe you still can.

Anyway, as long as America keeps doing what it does this ain't going away anytime soon. Perhaps your best bet is to start a new religion.

mattwnz

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#1787840 25-May-2017 00:45

joker97:

Geektastic:

I'm not sure we have the same definition of "Englishman".

He may have a British passport but that isn't the same thing to many of us.

If you have a British passport, you're a Brit.

Except when you are born in NZ, but still qualify for a british passport. I have both, as I also have a NZ one.

dwilson

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#1787848 25-May-2017 06:47

The religion part of this is just the mustard on the corned beef sandwich, pointless even discussing it.

This is just more chickens coming home to roost. Isis was created due to repeated and deliberate acts by western governments. Attacking Iraq in 2004 for example, the warnings of this awful future were loud and clear at the time, they were ignored. Isis likes to recruit residents of various countries, with a goal to make those countries turn into an ugly war zone, not too dissimilar to Iraq.

How do you solve that? Well, you don't. There is nothing to solve, this is the expected result of conscious and deliberate decisions made.

If I was wanting to change our future, I'd leave the mustard alone, you'll never scrape it off.

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#1787850 25-May-2017 07:07

Lias:

dafman:

For every 'evil' person you successfully bomb from high, you create two or more new recruits from the aftermath.

Agree to a point, but you can win by killing, you just simply have to beat them at their own game and "out evil" them. The western world doesn't have the stomach for total war where entire cities, tribes, countries, or religions are wiped out however.

Nope. When you "out evil" your enemies, it just makes you more evil than them.

At the risk of invoking Godwin's law, in the 1930s the Nazis tried that...

Batman

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#1787851 25-May-2017 07:09

mattwnz:

joker97:

Geektastic:

I'm not sure we have the same definition of "Englishman".

He may have a British passport but that isn't the same thing to many of us.

If you have a British passport, you're a Brit.

Except when you are born in NZ, but still qualify for a british passport. I have both, as I also have a NZ one.

If you look at a Honda Jazz, it's a Japanese car. Do people care that it's made in Thailand?

If you look at an Audi something, it's a German car. Do people care that it could be built in Hungary, China, South Africa ... etc ?

If you have a British passport, you're a Brit!

frankv

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#1787875 25-May-2017 08:13

Geektastic:

frankv:

Geektastic:

I'm not sure we have the same definition of "Englishman".

He may have a British passport but that isn't the same thing to many of us.

Perhaps you could define for us what an "Englishman" is?

My personal definition? Your family needs to have been there in 1945.

Interesting...

All your family? i.e. all your grandparents? Or just one of them? Or maybe a majority of them?

And is this biological or social? i.e. if you're the child of an adopted or step-child, which grandparents do you count?

Incidentally, I had a similar discussion with an indigenous Fijian some years ago. His position was that you couldn't call yourself a native of a particular place unless your family had been there 3,000 years or more.

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