Dallas shootings - 10 officers shot

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#1588655 9-Jul-2016 10:10

Good luck with any arms amnesty, not when people in the NRA promote slogans like "You can have my gun, when you prise it from my cold dead hands."

Geektastic

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#1588656 9-Jul-2016 10:12

JWR:

Geektastic:

DarthKermit:

Look at what happened after the worst mass killing (49 people) in June that they've yet had there. A hell of a lot of people went out and purchased more guns.

I really do think the USA is beyond any rational solution to its gun violence issues. Many thousands killed every year still isn't enough to cause any meaningful change.

It is the Wild West. They expect to carry guns and they expect to use them. They have never, in the history of the nation, been banned from doing so.

Why would we expect them to suddenly decide to adopt our way of looking at this instead of theirs?

Aside from all that, it would be tantamount to impossible to do anything about it. There are 112.6 guns per 100 residents in the USA and a population of 324 million. Since the firearms are largely unregistered how could you possibly ever track them down and recover them if you were ever mad enough to do that? I have heard anecdotally from people who lived in Australia when they decided to ban firearms (and yet, oddly, arm the police) that plenty just got wrapped in greased paper and buried in boxes in the bush. It would not surprise me in the least if that was so and it is certainly what would happen if they ever tried serious control measures in the USA.

I agree with a lot of that.

But, we aren't really concerned with hand guns and single shot rifles here.

It is the likes of the Ar-15 that is causing most of the ongoing problems.

I know it isn't fully automatic in the civilian versions. But, the damage is still ridiculous.

After each mass killing with an AR-15, the sales seem to soar.

Surely, that can be legislated.

The AR15 can easily be converted.

I know of at least one in NZ in private hands (legally) with "For Law Enforcement & Military Use Only" engraved on the receiver for just that reason...!

I also know of one NZer who lived in the USA and when he moved back here, he had to decide which of his 300+ guns to bring and which to leave in storage there! Now, many of those are investment pieces not users, but it gives you an idea of just how easy it is to own them there.

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#1588677 9-Jul-2016 10:50

So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. According to research by Politifact, there were about 1.4 million firearm deaths in that period, compared with 1.2 million US deaths in every conflict from the War of Independence to Iraq.

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#1588696 9-Jul-2016 11:12

Cartoon: What are you doing to your country? - NZ Herald Saturday Jul 09, 2016

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dejadeadnz

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#1588702 9-Jul-2016 11:22

The usual, boring commentary is coming out of the mouths of the right wing, conservative (moronic) politicians in response to this shooting. The idiotic Lieutenant-Governor of Texas has called the protestors at the rally hypocrites for seeking police shelter during the shooting. How can any thinking person not be outraged by this kind of commentary? It is absolutely proven that there are systemic biases within US law enforcement and justice -- people are right to protest about what are fundamental breaches of the law. Police officers' duties and obligations arise from the law -- they exist to serve and protect. Yet every bit of legitimate criticism of the police, even by relatively intelligent and moderate politicians (by US standards anyway), has to be prefaced with hagiographic and borderline sycophantic expressions of gratitude for the great job blah blah that police do. Nobody does the same thing in relation to, for example, doctors or firemen when they make legitimate critiques of them. This kind of thing follows absolutely outrageous incidents like police officers turning their backs en masse at the New York mayor during the funerals of those two cops killed following the decision not to charge the cops who choked Eric Garner to death.

Civilian/politically accountable control of police and policing are fundamental tenets of a civilised society. Yet the US seems content to elevate the police to some kind of inherently special status. Until the political climate stops privileging police and policing per se above all else, none of the issues that have caused so much recent grief will be addressed.

nakedmolerat

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#1588706 9-Jul-2016 11:25

US is falling apart from within the inside threat rather than external threat. I remember reading the story below - 10 yr old right wing shot his own dad! The dad who taught his son how to use the gun shot him at point blank to the back of his head! Why? Because he is angry at him. Even the young kids in the US believe gun is the solution to their problem!

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2015/06/magazine-documenting-america-white-nationalists-150609095548558.html

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#1588743 9-Jul-2016 12:00

DaveB:

So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. According to research by Politifact, there were about 1.4 million firearm deaths in that period, compared with 1.2 million US deaths in every conflict from the War of Independence to Iraq.

Did they actually break out the various numbers further? The studies also go into detail on how 2/3rds of those deaths are suicide (~900,000). 2/3rds of those remaining (~300,000) are drug and gang related killing i.e. gang wars, more laws don't stop criminals. This leaves somewhere in the vicinity of ~4,000 per year, which sounds and is high, but is also far less than many other causes of death in the USA.

People love to focus on the tool used (especially when its emotive, poorly understood and/or fits a narrative). People also love to focus on political leanings, when its obvious both 'sides' condemn these kind of acts, - except for the extreme views of a very small yet over represented and vocal minority of people from both ends of the spectrum (often on social media).

You might think 'just getting rids of guns' would work. It won't, even a cursory study of American history, how the states and country were formed can tell you that. The root cause is where the focus needs to be i.e. the wider societal issues such as mental health, employment and education.

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#1588751 9-Jul-2016 12:23

As long as there are issues with mental health, (un)employment and (lack of) education, maybe it is better to keep guns out of the hands of those people.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

tripper1000

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#1588759 9-Jul-2016 12:46

mrdrifter:

DaveB:

So many people die annually from gunfire in the US that the death toll between 1968 and 2011 eclipses all wars ever fought by the country. According to research by Politifact, there were about 1.4 million firearm deaths in that period, compared with 1.2 million US deaths in every conflict from the War of Independence to Iraq.

Did they actually break out the various numbers further? The studies also go into detail on how 2/3rds of those deaths are suicide (~900,000). 2/3rds of those remaining (~300,000) are drug and gang related killing i.e. gang wars, more laws don't stop criminals. This leaves somewhere in the vicinity of ~4,000 per year, which sounds and is high, but is also far less than many other causes of death in the USA.

People love to focus on the tool used (especially when its emotive, poorly understood and/or fits a narrative). People also love to focus on political leanings, when its obvious both 'sides' condemn these kind of acts, - except for the extreme views of a very small yet over represented and vocal minority of people from both ends of the spectrum (often on social media).

You might think 'just getting rids of guns' would work. It won't, even a cursory study of American history, how the states and country were formed can tell you that. The root cause is where the focus needs to be i.e. the wider societal issues such as mental health, employment and education.

Agree hands down that it is a cultural problem, however, people are people and are always going to get into conflict with one another regardless. While the tools of conflict resolution are seen to be guns, then people will shoot each other. If you take away the guns from the lowest common denominators (or at least license them to safe and rational people), you are sending the message that "you are miss-using these tools, and until you can be trusted to use them properly you can't have them back".

Yes people will still hurt each other, but you reduce the damage by removing a tool of mass destruction. Have you ever heard of a lone nut-job committing mass murder by beating people to death?

gzt

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#1588782 9-Jul-2016 13:02

Interesting fact: This may be the first drone killing in the USA.

freitasm

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#1588784 9-Jul-2016 13:04

It was not even a drone. It was robot.

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DarthKermit

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#1588794 9-Jul-2016 13:25

freitasm:

It was not even a drone. It was robot.

The Terminator?

gzt

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#1588795 9-Jul-2016 13:27

freitasm: It was not even a drone. It was robot.

Well this is true, maybe it is the wrong word to use.

'Drones' are associated with military use and this was police so different again there also.

Other than that, ground crawling instead of flying. Very similar principle though and still the first as far as I am aware.

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#1588798 9-Jul-2016 13:35

gzt:
freitasm: It was not even a drone. It was robot.

Well this is true, maybe it is the wrong word to use.

'Drones' are associated with military use and this was police so different again there also.

Other than that, ground crawling instead of flying.

Very similar principle though and still the first as far as I am aware.

A new era in policing? And a blurred line between policing and warfare? Interesting article in NYTimes here

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#1588801 9-Jul-2016 13:37

DarthKermit:

freitasm:

It was not even a drone. It was robot.

The Terminator?

Robocop, surely?

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