The Evil that is ISIS

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#1241791 18-Feb-2015 16:24

blakamin:
Geektastic:

I don't really agree that sovereignty should not be overturned in the greater good.

What constitutes the "greater good" (bearing in mind your reply to the other thread where you think the Empire should still be running Africa)?

Oil, Diamonds??

Exactly. "Greater Good" is subjective. A terrorist might thing that invading the US to fly planes into the twin towers if for the "greater good".

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MikeB4

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#1241794 18-Feb-2015 16:31

Geektastic:
ajobbins:
Geektastic: The UN should be running the world on the basis that there are Rules. If you break the rules and won't cease after reasonable requests, you should be 'cut off' for the good of the remainder.

But the UN doesn't run the world and UN member nations can't and shouldn't have their sovereignty overruled. They can deplore the actions of a member nation but can't compel then to comply with demands. If a sovereign nation asks for our help we should consider it, but if they don't, we really have no right to be there and showing up is an invasion, which is certainly how many in those nations see it.

I don't really agree that sovereignty should not be overturned in the greater good.

At the risk of invoking Goodwins law ( its relevent so bare with me) but sovereignty was over thrown in Europe and the Pacific in 1945 for the greater good.

testha

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#1241809 18-Feb-2015 16:53

geekiegeek: As far as NZ supporting the fight against ISIS, I fully support this even in a limited capacity as its not just about the impact we have on the ground but also about showing that we stand with the rest of the world and act as good global citizens.

The same good global citizens that destabilized the region by invading Iraq for false reasons and made the birth of ISIS possible?

MikeB4

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#1241813 18-Feb-2015 17:04

testha:
geekiegeek: As far as NZ supporting the fight against ISIS, I fully support this even in a limited capacity as its not just about the impact we have on the ground but also about showing that we stand with the rest of the world and act as good global citizens.

The same good global citizens that destabilized the region by invading Iraq for false reasons and made the birth of ISIS possible?

You do know the number of people Saddam Hussein slaughtered. E. G the Kurds

Dratsab

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#1241819 18-Feb-2015 17:11

From the bastion of truth... [/joke]

Agree with him or not, I believe he represents what the American Republican wants - to stomp in and wage an all out war. It seems to me the Obama administration is moving forward but is doing so cautiously and making a lot of the right moves to do so with local government agreement. At the end of the day, ISIS is a regional problem, not a global one as the media would have you believe.

Sure, some fanatics have committed murders in a few countries but ISIS is just an excuse for some of these things which may have happened anyway. Killing [murdering] people for insulting the prophet pre-dates ISIS by huge margin. A relatively recent example is the Pakistani cleric (Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi) who not only issued a Fatwa sanctioning the killing of a cartoonist who lampooned the prophet, but also a US$25,000 bounty (backed up with a further US$1 million from local businessmen) and a car for the cartoonists death.

Then there's also Theo van Gogh: murdered in 2004 for working on a short film which criticised the treatment of women under Islam. Examples of this type of religious brutality litter history.

ISIS are new to this game and are not a massive cohesive group with international reach. If you do a little research you'll find they are comprised of a number of different factions who have agreed to fly the same flag, but don't all have the same aims and goals. I have no doubt that at some point we will start seeing cells from returned fighters popping up in western countries and causing problems, but that's not the case presently.

SaltyNZ

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#1241820 18-Feb-2015 17:13

He was definitely a bad man who deserved everything he got in the end. But you have to admit that however well intentioned a western intervention was, it didn't really work out well for anyone except Haliburton.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

testha

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#1241825 18-Feb-2015 17:22

KiwiNZ:
testha:
geekiegeek: As far as NZ supporting the fight against ISIS, I fully support this even in a limited capacity as its not just about the impact we have on the ground but also about showing that we stand with the rest of the world and act as good global citizens.

The same good global citizens that destabilized the region by invading Iraq for false reasons and made the birth of ISIS possible?

You do know the number of people Saddam Hussein slaughtered. E. G the Kurds

North Korea? Colombia? Nigeria? People get slaughtered all over the world and the Good Global Citizen choose not to interfere.

They also chose to not interfere with Saddam for a long time, even supported him:

US intelligence helped Saddam's Ba`ath Party seize power for the first time in 1963. Evidence suggests that Saddam was on the CIA payroll as early as 1959, when he participated in a failed assassination attempt against Iraqi strongman Abd al-Karim Qassem. In the 1980s, the US and Britain backed Saddam in the war against Iran, giving Iraq arms, money, satellite intelligence, and even chemical & bio-weapon precursors. As many as 90 US military advisors supported Iraqi forces and helped pick targets for Iraqi air and missile attacks.

More reading here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/09/04/history-lesson-when-the-united-states-looked-the-other-way-on-chemical-weapons/

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gzt

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#1241828 18-Feb-2015 17:31

KiwiNZ:
testha:
geekiegeek: As far as NZ supporting the fight against ISIS, I fully support this even in a limited capacity as its not just about the impact we have on the ground but also about showing that we stand with the rest of the world and act as good global citizens.

The same good global citizens that destabilized the region by invading Iraq for false reasons and made the birth of ISIS possible?

You do know the number of people Saddam Hussein slaughtered. E. G the Kurds

Yes. With full American support at the time and neither a peep of objection from the govt of USA.

MikeB4

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#1241835 18-Feb-2015 17:36

testha:
KiwiNZ:
testha:
geekiegeek: As far as NZ supporting the fight against ISIS, I fully support this even in a limited capacity as its not just about the impact we have on the ground but also about showing that we stand with the rest of the world and act as good global citizens.

The same good global citizens that destabilized the region by invading Iraq for false reasons and made the birth of ISIS possible?

You do know the number of people Saddam Hussein slaughtered. E. G the Kurds

North Korea? Colombia? Nigeria? People get slaughtered all over the world and the Good Global Citizen choose not to interfere.

They also chose to not interfere with Saddam for a long time, even supported him:

US intelligence helped Saddam's Ba`ath Party seize power for the first time in 1963. Evidence suggests that Saddam was on the CIA payroll as early as 1959, when he participated in a failed assassination attempt against Iraqi strongman Abd al-Karim Qassem. In the 1980s, the US and Britain backed Saddam in the war against Iran, giving Iraq arms, money, satellite intelligence, and even chemical & bio-weapon precursors. As many as 90 US military advisors supported Iraqi forces and helped pick targets for Iraqi air and missile attacks.

More reading here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/09/04/history-lesson-when-the-united-states-looked-the-other-way-on-chemical-weapons/

I am confused now, so you are saying that nothing should be done about ISIS and or Boko Haram

Geektastic

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#1241840 18-Feb-2015 17:46

ajobbins:
blakamin:
Geektastic:

I don't really agree that sovereignty should not be overturned in the greater good.

What constitutes the "greater good" (bearing in mind your reply to the other thread where you think the Empire should still be running Africa)?

Oil, Diamonds??

Exactly. "Greater Good" is subjective. A terrorist might thing that invading the US to fly planes into the twin towers if for the "greater good".

I think it's one of those things you recognise when you see it. Burning pilots alive probably puts you on the wrong side of it.

blakamin

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#1241856 18-Feb-2015 18:17

Geektastic:
ajobbins:
blakamin:
Geektastic:

I don't really agree that sovereignty should not be overturned in the greater good.

What constitutes the "greater good" (bearing in mind your reply to the other thread where you think the Empire should still be running Africa)?

Oil, Diamonds??

Exactly. "Greater Good" is subjective. A terrorist might thing that invading the US to fly planes into the twin towers if for the "greater good".

I think it's one of those things you recognise when you see it. Burning pilots alive probably puts you on the wrong side of it.

And the "droning*" of weddings, schools, whole apartment blocks, etc. is "for the greater good"?

*MY new definition of droning: To send an armed, unmanned aircraft or "smart bomb" to various places (via GPS or operators in another region) to kill a "target" without worrying about collateral damage.

alexx

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#1241880 18-Feb-2015 18:53

myopinion: Just got this link in my Flipboard which explains in detail what they think Isis wants. Long article http://www.theatlantic.com/...

[Mod Edit |BH| Displayed link shortened to fix page display issues for some resolutions.]

Somehow that shortened link was messed up, but I found the article here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Long, but needs to be to cover a complex issue.
Well worth reading.

#include <standard.disclaimer>

Batman

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#1241891 18-Feb-2015 19:22

KiwiNZ:
testha:
geekiegeek: As far as NZ supporting the fight against ISIS, I fully support this even in a limited capacity as its not just about the impact we have on the ground but also about showing that we stand with the rest of the world and act as good global citizens.

The same good global citizens that destabilized the region by invading Iraq for false reasons and made the birth of ISIS possible?

You do know the number of people Saddam Hussein slaughtered. E. G the Kurds

yes, but invading Iraq under the false pretence of WOMD ... ! why didn't GWB just said, we want Saddam out so we can take his oil?

but these ISIS guys have struck a difficult chord to break.
- they use social media
- they influence the young people who are willing to risk it all
- they can influence people on the other side of the globe without so much as an email

the problem is, the West cannot solve it. only the Arabs can.

xlinknz

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#1241894 18-Feb-2015 19:25

joker97:

1) this happens all the time, before there was ISIS, someone else / some other groups are doing it. sometimes even governments.

2) beheading: in 2014 alone, Saudi Arabia beheaded 87 people under their law

Exactly what is new how ISIS/L cleverly use the media

The NZ govt seems to be selective about where it shows its outage...

The Saudi's behead people in public they just don't post to Twitter or youtube. NZ sends no less than our governor general to the ceremony of condolences for the Saudi King, the new king immediately beheads more people. I won't go on about how authoritarian that [friend] state is

The NZ govt doesn't offer to help the fight against Boko Haram [fewer cries of outrage there]
The NZ govt wasn't overly concerned at the extra ordinary renditioning [often of innocents] the US was doing, often to countries who would happily torture those provided to them
The NZ govt isn't overly concerned with permanent detention without trial at Guantanamo Bay

I could make the list longer

I'd rather see a NZ response be more even handed

MikeB4

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#1241897 18-Feb-2015 19:26

joker97:
KiwiNZ:
testha:
geekiegeek: As far as NZ supporting the fight against ISIS, I fully support this even in a limited capacity as its not just about the impact we have on the ground but also about showing that we stand with the rest of the world and act as good global citizens.

The same good global citizens that destabilized the region by invading Iraq for false reasons and made the birth of ISIS possible?

You do know the number of people Saddam Hussein slaughtered. E. G the Kurds

yes, but invading Iraq under the false pretence of WOMD ... ! why didn't GWB just said, we want Saddam out so we can take his oil?

but these ISIS guys have struck a difficult chord to break.
- they use social media
- they influence the young people who are willing to risk it all
- they can influence people on the other side of the globe without so much as an email

the problem is, the West cannot solve it. only the Arabs can.

This is a Global problem

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