Device that would work as wireless bridge for media streaming

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alaw005

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#102439 15-May-2012 23:10

I am after a device (another router?) that would work as a wireless bridge for media streaming to my home theatre and provide an Ethernet connection to my TV and MagicTV while future proofing for a gaming machine. I also want to upgrade my home server sometime to something I can leave on all the time and with heaps of disk space for backups and to hold all my media but in meantime I will continue using my 500GB USB media storage device.

The network I am trying to set up is shown here.

I cannot find any definitive information on whether a wireless bridge is possible/feasible. I am thinking it must be possible as others must want to do the same sort of thing but most of the information I can find seems to say that this just is not possible. That I will need to connect both routers with an ethernet cable which I cannot do as I don't want to rip up our walls.

I want to spend less than $200 and don't want to risk buying a devise that won't work for me. I'd would appreciate any advice.

RunningMan

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#625898 16-May-2012 09:07

Airport Express?

sbiddle

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#625900 16-May-2012 09:15

Most wireless AP's will work in bridge mode.

My pick would be a TP-Link 701, from memory they're about $45 and do 150Mbps wireless N so are a good match for the SRP521.

freitasm

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#625901 16-May-2012 09:21

You might check the Netgear HD/Gaming 5GHz kit... Less likely to have interference due to the band it's using.

Altan

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#625902 16-May-2012 09:25

Adding a wireless bridge like that would definitely decrease the overall throughput for your wireless clients. If it was me i would either, lay a cat6 line or add a dedicated wireless repeater(or whatever its called) on each end and a gigabit switch for your tv, gaming pc etc.

DrStrangelove

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#626151 16-May-2012 14:04

Altan: If it was me i would either, lay a cat6 line or add a dedicated wireless repeater(or whatever its called) on each end and a gigabit switch for your tv, gaming pc etc.

True (CAT6 bit), I have an Android box providing HDMI 'service' to my TV where the Android box only has 100MBits Ethernet when the rest of my LAN is Gigabit and I notice the difference. That said, I do maintain my 12Mbits broadband Internet speed at my Android/TV location with my NAS access constrained to the 100Mbits Ethernet limitations.

For Full-HD media you'll need at least 25Mbits and 'stable'.
For uncompressed HD media you'll need at least 12Mbits.

If there is any human way possible, I'd run CAT6.
Another option is Ethernet over power if you have outlets on the same circuit.
Otherwise a Wireless bridge and _not_ a Range Extender as that'll _never_ work due to WiFi being half-duplex and then further decreased (almost halved) by the remote shared Wireless 'AP'.

5GHz at 450Mbit/s would seem ideal, however in reality over distance, on a 'home' router one may not even reach 100Mbits/s.

As an example one could look at the Asus RT-N66U and Asus EA-N66 as reference on what you'd be looking for as a Wireless solution and then find something scaled to your needs.

Depending on the services required I'd install a NAS for your storage requirements.

There are a lot of NAS available with different levels of software features and disk capacity RAID/non-RAID.

If you have services dependant on Microsoft applications/OS a NAS may not be the answer.

I have a QNAP TS-112 (Baby NAS) with 2TB disk(3TB non-RAID max), eSATA backup and USB printer attached. It'll go into sleep mode if not used. My always powered on is just the NAS, ADSL2 modem and a Gigabit WiFi router.

One can use Zorn software library tools to bind NAS folders to Microsoft library folders in Windows 7 desktop/notebooks.

On a Gigabit LAN serviced by a NAS/network server, WiFi will always be second rate.

alaw005

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#626357 16-May-2012 18:08

Thanks guys for the advice, although I'm still not sure which way to go.

Altan: Adding a wireless bridge like that would definitely decrease the overall throughput for your wireless clients. If it was me i would either, lay a cat6 line or add a dedicated wireless repeater(or whatever its called) on each end and a gigabit switch for your tv, gaming pc etc.

It sounds as if a standard access point option, like the Airport express or TP-Link, won't cut it and will possibly reduce overall performance of my wireless network. Is that really the case, isn't a wireless bridge just a way of setting up an access point? I don't need more wireless coverage, just to bridge my home theatre devices to the rest of the network which is connected to the SRP521.

freitasm: You might check the Netgear HD/Gaming 5GHz kit... Less likely to have interference due to the band it's using.

I'm quite intrigued by this kit although a quick Google seems to indicate a cost of around $300. I also read in the link and that placement is critical to get necessary speed which might be an issue as I don't have much choice as to placement.

DrStrangelove: If there is any human way possible, I'd run CAT6.
Another option is Ethernet over power if you have outlets on the same circuit.
Otherwise a Wireless bridge and _not_ a Range Extender as that'll _never_ work due to WiFi being half-duplex and then further decreased (almost halved) by the remote shared Wireless 'AP'.

Yes, sounds like I might need to try another angle to convince my wife that we really do need to lay cable.

I don't understand the wireless bridge/range extender distinction or even really teh bridge/access point distinction.

DrStrangelove: Depending on the services required I'd install a NAS for your storage requirements.

There are a lot of NAS available with different levels of software features and disk capacity RAID/non-RAID.

If you have services dependant on Microsoft applications/OS a NAS may not be the answer.

I have a QNAP TS-112 (Baby NAS) with 2TB disk(3TB non-RAID max), eSATA backup and USB printer attached. It'll go into sleep mode if not used. My always powered on is just the NAS, ADSL2 modem and a Gigabit WiFi router.

One can use Zorn software library tools to bind NAS folders to Microsoft library folders in Windows 7 desktop/notebooks.

I like this idea, I could then replace usb media deivice and ideally my home server also, although I would like to host a php/mysql site for testing etc. Might look into this once sorted out next steps (and budget)

DrStrangelove: As an example one could look at the Asus RT-N66U and Asus EA-N66 as reference on what you'd be looking for as a Wireless solution and then find something scaled to your needs.

That sounds good, an "RT-N66U Dual-Band Wireless-N900 Gigabit Router" is listed for $179.99. Do you think this would work for me???

DrStrangelove

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#626557 16-May-2012 22:44

alaw005: I don't understand the wireless bridge/range extender distinction or even really teh bridge/access point distinction.
DrStrangelove: Depending on the services required I'd install a NAS for your storage requirements.
There are a lot of NAS available with different levels of software features and disk capacity RAID/non-RAID.
If you have services dependant on Microsoft applications/OS a NAS may not be the answer.
I have a QNAP TS-112 (Baby NAS) with 2TB disk(3TB non-RAID max), eSATA backup and USB printer attached. It'll go into sleep mode if not used. My always powered on is just the NAS, ADSL2 modem and a Gigabit WiFi router.
One can use Zorn software library tools to bind NAS folders to Microsoft library folders in Windows 7 desktop/notebooks.

I like this idea, I could then replace usb media deivice and ideally my home server also, although I would like to host a php/mysql site for testing etc. Might look into this once sorted out next steps (and budget)

DrStrangelove: As an example one could look at the Asus RT-N66U and Asus EA-N66 as reference on what you'd be looking for as a Wireless solution and then find something scaled to your needs.

That sounds good, an "RT-N66U Dual-Band Wireless-N900 Gigabit Router" is listed for $179.99. Do you think this would work for me???

ASUS RT-N66U and a EA-N66 may be a bit of an over kill and I don't know the device(s) well enough to comment.
On paper they do look impressive.
However, I would suggest you will need at least a 1Gbit LAN backbone whatever way you play it.
And a 5GHz WiFi bridged network doesn't hurt if your 2.4GHz WiFi is getting congested.
With good 5GHz equipment and 10-15metre bridge you should be getting a usable 100 - 150Mbps

But wait.. there is more..

I know both Synology and QNAP NAS support PHP and MySQL along with web hosting. That's all just point and click to set up.
The entery level NAS quite often come with three USB 2.0, eSATA and Gigabit Ethernet. This will extend out to USB 3.0 probably sooner than later on newer models. As an example a QNAP TS-112 costs ~$300.00 plus the cost of whatever disks you purchase (or use your existing compatible ones)

I'm even considering putting Perl on mine as one can extend the applications beyond those that come supported on the device. It's Unix based software.

Both NAS comes with PPP and OpenVPN servers... but for security reasons I've chosen to use Tomato firmware on my Linksys E4200v1 router for my PPP, OpenVPN servers, DHCP and DNS.

Android (and probably iOS) are as happy as pigs in mud when using the above NAS.

My Android phone using ES File Explorer doesn't know the difference between local (SD card) and LAN files. I can install apk files directly from my NAS using my phone/Android OS or stream movies/music to my receiver/TV/phone direct from the NAS.

Different WiFi connections

WiFi Access Point is a WiFi adapter broadcasting (if not hidden) a Service Set ID (SSID) which one can connect to, which in turn, has connections to other network services, most commonly the Internet. With an Access point, typically you and your local WiFi LAN clients are the only devices 'talking' to the WiFi adapter providing the Access Point.
WiFi operates similar to Ethernet in that there can be only one conversion at any one time and many talkers will degrade the service. This is why when other WiFi adapters which may or may not be yours are all talking on the same or overlapping channels, things can go down hill quickly. That's why around the dinner table each person gets a turn to talk as if everybody talked at the same time... your family probably has a Latin background and to anyone else it sounds like chaos.

WiFi Bridging is just taking the data from one WiFi adapter and sending to another, where a LAN connection at the other end commonly then farms out the service. Tyically attached to a switch as most home budget bridges come with only one 10/100Mbit Ethernet

WiFi Extending (Range Extender) is sending the signal to a WiFi adapter which receives the signal and then retransmits it again on the same WiFi adapter to any connected WiFi client beyond the functional range of the first WiFi adapter. The problem here is that the WiFi adapter acting as the range extender is sending and receiving data from both the first WiFi adapter and the end WiFi client, thus doubling the data volume it has to process.
This is effectively halving the data throughput capability of the middle man, the range extender.
Range Extenders are only any good if you just need a signal and not interest in the available bandwidth.
Streaming 96Kbits/s internet radio would be a good use of a range extender where bandwidth is low.
If you can get a stable WiFi connection without a WiFi range extender, in most cases you'd get better bandwidth throughput than with a Range Extender in nearly all cases.
WiFi Range extenders will never(generalisation) give you better bandwidth, but will 'extend' the distance the small trickle being provided goes.

Just out of interest I connected my Linksys RE1000 and TP-Link WA730RE range extenders up in "bridge" mode and tested them.

Four internal walls to the bridge(s) located 10metres from the router (Linksys E4200 running Tomato firmware)

The Notebook was connected to the WA730RE/RE1000 via Ethernet with no other devices using the service as a range extender. Notebook had WiFi switched off.

* Source

Device: Linksys E4200v1 router
Channel Size: 40Mhz
2.4Ghz Connection: 300Mbps
Noise Floor: -87dBm

* Range Extender mode

Device: Linksys RE1000
Distance: 10metres
Channel Size: 40Mhz
2.4GHz connection: 108Mbps
Bandwidth: ~28Mbits/s

* Bridge Mode

Device: Linksys RE1000
Distance: 10metres
Channel Size: 40Mhz
2.4GHz connection: 117Mbps
Bandwidth: ~56Mbits/s

Device: TP-Link WA730RE
Distance: 10metres
Channel Size: 20MHz
2.4GHz connection: 78Mbps
Bandwidth: ~32Mbits/s

I had a play with a TP-Link WA830RE a few days ago, extending a TG585v8 65Mbps WiFi and it didn't give any performance benefits over the WA730RE in this configuration (extending 20MHz 65Mbps adapter).
It'd probably perform better admittedly when extending a 40MHz 300Mbps WiFi adapter from a router than the humble Thomson TG585v8 65Mbps adapter.
Also of note I do get indications that my RE1000 Range Extender is becoming congested and/or unable to buffer/window data correctly and after being on for several hours, I find I have to reset it to 'clear communications'.
It also appears it doesn't like short WiFi preamble headers.

* Compare this to my Notebook at the same location talking directly to the Linksys E4200:

Device: Alienware M11x Notebook
Distance: 10metres
Channel size: 40MHz
Signal Strength: -50dBm
GHz 2.4 connection: 162Mbps (indicated)
Bandwidth: ~80 - 100Mbps

So, given those figures, I wouldn't be counting on a 2.4GHz Range Extender in bridge mode providing any usable service.
The Notebook without the bridging is communicating at almost twice the through of either the RE1000 or WA730RE(which works brilliantly with Thomson TG585v8 65Mbps WiFi)

To be honest, any right thinking person probably wouldn't be considering any Linksys device in native configuration for anything beyond mediocre service.

To be fair, even when range extenders says they can be used as bridges, they make a pretty poor effort of it.

So, if one could find a WiFi bridging adapter which gives a solid 50Mbits/s for your required distance, I'd say you'd be OK, until something better comes along. But CAT6 cable is the best option.

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Ragnor

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#626612 17-May-2012 01:50

I would try to run a cable, CAT5e or CAT6 and put a 5 port gigabit switch at the HTPC end. Where there is a will there is a way eg: under the house, in the ceiling, under the carpet etc.

Alternatively power line network adapters (also know as home plug) might be a good option if you really can't run a cable.

http://pricespy.co.nz/category.php?m=s87685884&o=produkt_pris_inkmoms

.. but seriously run a cable if you can.

alaw005

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#626677 17-May-2012 09:28

DrStrangelove: ASUS RT-N66U and a EA-N66 may be a bit of an over kill and I don't know the device(s) well enough to comment.
On paper they do look impressive.

Does anyone have any experience with these devices? While they might seem overkill, I do like that I can plug my usb directly in - at least until I get a NAS (which is now firmly on my shopping list when budget permits).

So, if one could find a WiFi bridging adapter which gives a solid 50Mbits/s for your required distance, I'd say you'd be OK, until something better comes along. But CAT6 cable is the best option.

Thank you DrStrangelove for your explanation and posting your tests. Very interesting, I especially get the point now about the impact on the bandwidth. I'm now trying to think of ways of getting cable through the house with minimum impact, it would have to be the attic as we have concrete floor and unfortunately there is no straight drop to the home theatre which sits in a bay window.

Ragnor: Alternatively power line network adapters (also know as home plug) might be a good option if you really can't run a cable.

Is this a secure option? I have also read somewhere that power points needs to be on the same circuit, how can I be sure of that? I expect I will have to purchase a separate switch.

alaw005

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#627568 18-May-2012 22:25

Thanks guys, really appreciate detailed advice. I've decided to not do anything for now and give some thought to how I might be able to installing cat5e. Problem is its an outside wall and the attic very tight above and nightmare to move around in. Thinking save up and become a "Smart House".

alaw005

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#632383 30-May-2012 07:58

Update in case anyone else has same question ... I've ended up getting a D-Link Powerline 4 Port Start Kit from Dicksmith for $120. Its rated at 200Mbps and I'm getting about 170Mbps which works perfectly for my HD media.

Tip for beginners - don't trying plugging devices into a power board, I was only getting 5-7Mbps and was just about ready to return it which thought might be the power board.

I found that this ethernet over power solution is much cheaper than cost of buying and installing cat5 cable, switches, wall plates, patch leads etc for a full solution (I worked out about $400 in ... not counting any household alterations).

I am very happy now. Only issue is I have no usb ports for my usb storage but I am now looking for a NAS to replace that and also a new laptop as HDD has just failed but those are topics for other posts.

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#632482 30-May-2012 10:46

Nice! Those power line adapaters are full of win if you really can't run a cable.

neb

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#1667720 11-Nov-2016 00:03

For people looking for an updated version of this, there are cheaper devices available under the name wireless media bridge. Examples are the D-Link DAP-1513 (which I've seen for as little as USD 10 on eBay) and the Edimax CV-7428. Those are slightly older models (they still do 802.11n et al), if you want more exotic 5 GHz ones with GigE then you'd have to pay a bit more. The nice thing about the Edimax one is that you can power it off USB, so it'll turn any ethernet-only device into a WiFi-enabled one. I've used it for a set of WiFi devices where I've cut down from three separate WiFi radios active to one, the Edimax box. It also greatly reduced the headaches involved in dealing with custom builds of WiFi drivers every time there was a kernel update on one of the connected devices.