Multi site-to-site VPN firewall with ikev2 support

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frederik

23 posts

Geek

#175682 8-Jul-2015 15:34

Hi all,

I'm currently using a Draytek Vigor 2760 as combined VDSL modem and firewall/VPN device. This has worked fine so far as I only needed a single ikev1 site-to-site VPN. Now I need to be able to set up multiple site-to-site VPNs (at least 4 right now with potential to grow to 10+ soon) and need to support ikev2 to be able to use dynamic gateways when connecting to Azure via site-to-site VPN.
I am currently looking at a Fortinet FortiGate FG-30D, as this seems to be the cheapest option that meets the requirements, but was wondering whether anybody has any experience with this device or can recommend other devices that can do the job.

Thanks, Frederik

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3918 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#1339342 8-Jul-2015 16:17

PFSense?

Speedtest 2019-10-14

frederik

23 posts

Geek

#1339344 8-Jul-2015 16:24

Thanks Jonathan. Had a quick look at pfsense and couldn't find where to buy prebuilt devices in NZ. Would like to avoid buying a new server for this purpose.

Zeon

3918 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#1339355 8-Jul-2015 16:53

frederik: Thanks Jonathan. Had a quick look at pfsense and couldn't find where to buy prebuilt devices in NZ. Would like to avoid buying a new server for this purpose.

Ah yes you can't buy pre-built devices in NZ. You can re-purpose any PC to run it and even old PCs will have better performance than most devices (unless they have hardware AES encrypt/decrypt). We run PFsense as VMs under VMware.

Speedtest 2019-10-14

frederik

23 posts

Geek

#1339374 8-Jul-2015 17:00

Zeon: Ah yes you can't buy pre-built devices in NZ. You can re-purpose any PC to run it and even old PCs will have better performance than most devices (unless they have hardware AES encrypt/decrypt). We run PFsense as VMs under VMware.

Hmm, okay. Still would be a bit awkward since this device needs to be the one that connects to the VDSL modem (or ONT soon once we have fibre) as it needs to have the public IP address. Otherwise the Azure VPN connection doesn't work (can't be behind NAT). So would prefer a small form factor and low power consumption device that can sit next to the modem rather than using any old PC. Could look into buying a NUC and install it there but then it's almost the same price as buying a FortiGate.

pdath

252 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1339385 8-Jul-2015 17:17

Warning, I sell and work with Cisco devices so my views are coloured.

My personal preference is a Cisco 897 router/firewall. Does everything you mention but no GUI, so you need to know how to drive the command line. It has ADSL, VDSL and UFB support built in, so can connect to any Internet connection in NZ. It will flat line a 100Mb/s circuit with crypto throughput. It is the most flexible configurable device option.

My second choice would be a Cisco ASA 5506 or 5508. Has a GUI, but only has Ethernet interfaces. Note you need an extra licence to enable the IKEv2 support. It is not as flexible as the 897 router, but you get that as soon as you want a pretty GUI.

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frederik

23 posts

Geek

#1339667 9-Jul-2015 09:05

pdath: Warning, I sell and work with Cisco devices so my views are coloured.

My personal preference is a Cisco 897 router/firewall. Does everything you mention but no GUI, so you need to know how to drive the command line. It has ADSL, VDSL and UFB support built in, so can connect to any Internet connection in NZ. It will flat line a 100Mb/s circuit with crypto throughput. It is the most flexible configurable device option.

My second choice would be a Cisco ASA 5506 or 5508. Has a GUI, but only has Ethernet interfaces. Note you need an extra licence to enable the IKEv2 support. It is not as flexible as the 897 router, but you get that as soon as you want a pretty GUI.

I don't really care about GUI, and don't necessarily need the VDSL/UFB modem to be included, so either device should work then I guess.
If I checked that right then the ASA 5506/5508 is even more expensive than the 897 when you include the IKEv2 license, so seems like the 897 would be the better device then. Just wondering whether the extra price tag is worth it in comparison to the Fortinet device. In your opining is there any big advantage that the Cisco devices have over the FG-30D?

pdath

252 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1339693 9-Jul-2015 09:27

I don't know anything about the Fortinet devices. We use the 897's a lot for site to site VPNs. In my experience if you want it reliable and want to minimise grief then don't put any VPN terminators behind NATed connections. Get the public IP address directly on the devices doing the VPN termination.

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billgates

4705 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#1339695 9-Jul-2015 09:30

FortiGate FG-30D is not going to cut it for site to site VPN. It struggles due to hardware specs. 60D at minimum which is what we use to deploy site to site VPN.

Do whatever you want to do man.

Jax

92 posts

Master Geek

#1339723 9-Jul-2015 09:59

Perhaps one of the new Sonicwall TZ series that have just come out - TZ300 would be minimum & supports up to 10 Site to site.
http://www.sonicwall.com/us/en/products/TZ-Series.html#tab=models

You mention going to UFB, so you don't want to cheap out on a gateway device that could potentially be a bottleneck for 100Mb+ connections esp if you enable UTM features - check the throughput specs.

If on VDSL, you might need to bridge the connection to get the public IP on the firewall, I think the Draytek V130 does this.

frederik

23 posts

Geek

#1339728 9-Jul-2015 10:04

pdath: I don't know anything about the Fortinet devices. We use the 897's a lot for site to site VPNs. In my experience if you want it reliable and want to minimise grief then don't put any VPN terminators behind NATed connections. Get the public IP address directly on the devices doing the VPN termination.

Yeah, absolutely agree. Wanted to use the existing modem as just that - dumb modem in bridge mode so that the firewall has the public IP. We definitely need this for the Azure VPN to work. So a combined device would absolutely be better, but I guess should work with bridge mode too.
There seem to be different variants of the C897. Other than Wifi I don't see much difference. Should any of those work?
http://pricespy.co.nz/product.php?p=2008641
http://pricespy.co.nz/product.php?p=3031340
http://pricespy.co.nz/product.php?p=1728889

billgates: FortiGate FG-30D is not going to cut it for site to site VPN. It struggles due to hardware specs. 60D at minimum which is what we use to deploy site to site VPN.

That's good to know, thanks.

Jax: Perhaps one of the new Sonicwall TZ series that have just come out - TZ300 would be minimum & supports up to 10 Site to site.
http://www.sonicwall.com/us/en/products/TZ-Series.html#tab=models
You mention going to UFB, so you don't want to cheap out on a gateway device that could potentially be a bottleneck for 100Mb+ connections esp if you enable UTM features - check the throughput specs.
If on VDSL, you might need to bridge the connection to get the public IP on the firewall, I think the Draytek V130 does this.

We previously had a TZ210 and that was a disaster, but the newer ones might be better I guess.
We currently are on VDSL and have both V130 and V2760 so could use either of those for bridging. Fibre upgrade was requested 6 months ago but Chorus is still messing around, so no idea when we get it, but hopefully soon. Should definitely be prepared for that.

Jax

92 posts

Master Geek

#1339733 9-Jul-2015 10:13

What issues did you have with the TZ210?
My company sells both Soniwall and Fortinet, Dell was in the other day and were pretty excited about the new range and the speed bumps they got.

If you have an older Sonciwall unit, you might qualify for a "secure upgrade" price

pdath

252 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1339749 9-Jul-2015 10:18

frederik:
pdath: I don't know anything about the Fortinet devices. We use the 897's a lot for site to site VPNs. In my experience if you want it reliable and want to minimise grief then don't put any VPN terminators behind NATed connections. Get the public IP address directly on the devices doing the VPN termination.

Yeah, absolutely agree. Wanted to use the existing modem as just that - dumb modem in bridge mode so that the firewall has the public IP. We definitely need this for the Azure VPN to work. So a combined device would absolutely be better, but I guess should work with bridge mode too.
There seem to be different variants of the C897. Other than Wifi I don't see much difference. Should any of those work?
http://pricespy.co.nz/product.php?p=2008641
http://pricespy.co.nz/product.php?p=3031340
http://pricespy.co.nz/product.php?p=1728889
...

You'll want:

C897VA-K9
CON-SNT-C897VAK9

If you also want 4G failover capability then you'll need the model with 4G built in as well:

C897VAG-LTE-GA-K9
CON-SNT-C897VAGK9

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frederik

23 posts

Geek

#1339759 9-Jul-2015 10:31

pdath:
You'll want:
C897VA-K9
CON-SNT-C897VAK9
If you also want 4G failover capability then you'll need the model with 4G built in as well:
C897VAG-LTE-GA-K9
CON-SNT-C897VAGK9

Awesome, thanks.

Jax: What issues did you have with the TZ210?
My company sells both Soniwall and Fortinet, Dell was in the other day and were pretty excited about the new range and the speed bumps they got.
If you have an older Sonciwall unit, you might qualify for a "secure upgrade" price

We used it as firewall/VPN device behind the Vigor130 in bridge mode, but the TZ210 kept reconnecting the WAN interface every 2 minutes and therefore dropped the internet and VPN connection. Other routers behind the Vigor130 worked fine.

Jax

92 posts

Master Geek

#1339765 9-Jul-2015 10:39

frederik:
pdath:
You'll want:
C897VA-K9
CON-SNT-C897VAK9
If you also want 4G failover capability then you'll need the model with 4G built in as well:
C897VAG-LTE-GA-K9
CON-SNT-C897VAGK9

Awesome, thanks.

Jax: What issues did you have with the TZ210?
My company sells both Soniwall and Fortinet, Dell was in the other day and were pretty excited about the new range and the speed bumps they got.
If you have an older Sonciwall unit, you might qualify for a "secure upgrade" price

We used it as firewall/VPN device behind the Vigor130 in bridge mode, but the TZ210 kept reconnecting the WAN interface every 2 minutes and therefore dropped the internet and VPN connection. Other routers behind the Vigor130 worked fine.

Oh ok - FYI we have that combo in loads of places with no issue.

pdath

252 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1340013 9-Jul-2015 14:12

If you do go the Cisco 897 way, make sure you use the iWAN technology to build the VPNs. Bar far the best and easiest way to build lots of VPNs.

Cisco iWAN info

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