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networkn

Networkn
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#304587 17-May-2023 17:18
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So before we left on holiday (the evening prior to flying out) water started dripping heavily from the ceiling into our lounge room. This was particularly concerning as we don't have any bathrooms or toilets directly above or even super close. 

 

We turned off the water and contacted our plumber, who despite multiple promises, didn't come until 10 days later when we got back from holiday (In Laws had keys etc). 

 

Turns out, our recently renovated ensuite shower is the culprit. We just had a new shower base put down a couple of months ago and a Tiler did all the waterproofing and then laid tiles. Seems some part of that has not been done correctly. As a result water has travelled down and into the cavity between our first and second floor and water has poured out. We haven't been able to see where the water leaked from, we have used the shower many many many times since the renovation without this issue and believe it may have been caused by one of our kids sitting over the drain when the water was running.

 

We have lodged an insurance claim, stopped using the ensuite and am awaiting an assessor to come and inspect. At the least the ceiling in the downstairs lounge, living and kitchen will need to be repainted and looks like some plaster is also likely damaged. We aren't sure if water has gone into the walls. 

 

The insurer is likely to repair the damage caused by the leak, but not the cause of the leak itself nor the plumber to come and check it out, does that sound about right? 

 

If that's the case, and it looks like the shower will need to have it's tiles lifted and waterproofing re-done, at a considerable cost, who is liable? I assume the tiler/waterproofer? Is that process going to be us against that guy, or insurance against that guy? Obviously, we aren't keen to get him back given the job he did looks to be the cause of the issue. 

 

 

 

Does anyone have experience of something like this?


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OllieF
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  #3077244 17-May-2023 17:41
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I think you have done all the right things.  Without knowing the full details, I may also get an experienced builder (site 2 or 3 level) to take an extensive look) in case the plumber or insurance assessor has missed something. 

 

Does indeed sound like a nightmare.  All the best.




Handle9
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  #3077253 17-May-2023 18:06
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Who was your contract with for the bathroom? Did you use a main contractor or did you engage the sub-trades directly?

 

Whoever your contract is with for the work holds the liability. The insurance company will go after that contractor as should you.

 

The other complicating factor in bathrooms is when waterproofing is involved there can be consents required. It's a tricky situation and worth investigating carefully. 

 

https://www.heskethhenry.co.nz/insights-opinion/tiled-showers-did-you-know-a-building-consent-may-be-required-00192/

 

 


gzt

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  #3077258 17-May-2023 18:46
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networkn: Does anyone have experience of something like this?

I had something similar. The builder was familiar with NZ made shower bases. My base was an import and different. Assembly required silicone seal all around the base meeting the door track. This wasn't done. Another factor the tiler had not sealed the skirting tile top edge butting the side of the shower base at the top corner - normally not really necessary and not a problem, that created a path for water to flow from the base top corner in behind the tiles.. eventually exiting under a cabinet on the opposite side of the wall some distance away.

I caught it before any real damage. The tracing took a few goes with the plumber, builder and tiler coming in at different times. Eventually figured out with elimination it did take ages and running the shower and spraying around and observing. Solution was builder sealing the base as required.

As I recall instructions for the base were unclear at best. The builder assumed it was similar to NZ bases. Liability did not come up as there was no lasting damage and everyone just pitched in at no charge over several weeks and visits until it was resolved.



pih

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  #3077259 17-May-2023 18:52
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networkn:

 

...and believe it may have been caused by one of our kids sitting over the drain when the water was running. 

 

 

Might be worth investigating this further, even to the point of cutting a ceiling hatch out below the ensuite to inspect the area below the shower, and leak testing to see if the waterproofing fails when it shouldn't.

 

If what you say is correct, it may not be failed waterproofing at all: if my kids are anything to go by they love to make a bath out of a shower, is it possible the water overflowed out of the waterproofed shower base area? In which case, no tradies are to blame 😕

 

 


gzt

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  #3077261 17-May-2023 19:19
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networkn: given the job he did looks to be the cause of the issue

as you can tell from my little story it's a good idea to avoid assumptions. The cause may be multiple contributing factors or a wildcard nobody predicted.

surfisup1000
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  #3077272 17-May-2023 20:29
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We had something similar happen with our upstairs bath ... the drain developed a leak and it came down pretty quickly into our kitchen area.   

 

Even so, our insurance company said this is considered this to be a 'slow' leak and they only paid a partial payout.   So, we had to pay 1/2 of the repairs ourselves from memory. You might find they consider your case as gradual damage .

 

https://initio.co.nz/faqs/is-my-water-damage-sudden-or-hidden-gradual-damage/

 

In any case, your insurance company is not liable for the faulty installation.  

 

Did you check if your tradie had liability insurance? If so, you could perhaps claim under their insurance. Otherwise, you'll need to sue the tradie. Disputes tribunal could be an option for claims less than 10k I think.

 

If the tradie is using a limited liability company he can just shutdown the company to avoid liability.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Handle9
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  #3077277 17-May-2023 20:47
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surfisup1000:

 


We had something similar happen with our upstairs bath ... the drain developed a leak and it came down pretty quickly into our kitchen area.   


Even so, our insurance company said this is considered this to be a 'slow' leak and they only paid a partial payout.   So, we had to pay 1/2 of the repairs ourselves from memory. You might find they consider your case as gradual damage .


https://initio.co.nz/faqs/is-my-water-damage-sudden-or-hidden-gradual-damage/


In any case, your insurance company is not liable for the faulty installation.  


Did you check if your tradie had liability insurance? If so, you could perhaps claim under their insurance. Otherwise, you'll need to sue the tradie. Disputes tribunal could be an option for claims less than 10k I think.


If the tradie is using a limited liability company he can just shutdown the company to avoid liability.


 


 


 



Most trades will sort something like this out without having to be sued. Unfortunately things go wrong sometimes, the decent guys understand their obligations and behave responsibly.

 
 
 

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Bung
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  #3077278 17-May-2023 20:48
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networkn: we have used the shower many many many times since the renovation without this issue and believe it may have been caused by one of our kids sitting over the drain when the water was running.




If it was waterproofed properly the only way for a blocked outlet to cause damage would be overflow into the bathroom. Do you have a floor drain? Most floor drains just sit there with a bit of water in the trap. If it is rarely used it might be worth checking that that drain doesn't leak.

networkn

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  #3077568 18-May-2023 16:32
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Bung: 

 

If it was waterproofed properly the only way for a blocked outlet to cause damage would be overflow into the bathroom. Do you have a floor drain? Most floor drains just sit there with a bit of water in the trap. If it is rarely used it might be worth checking that that drain doesn't leak.

 

I've had expected that the entire bathroom floor would be waterproof, and no, no drain outside the shower as it has a decent sized lip and everything is angled toward the drain. Given we have used the shower for months and no issues we have been aware of prior, I think whatever the issue is, it's going to be up higher than the floor of the shower (or outside the shower, though I don't think that's the case as we would have had water on the floor of the bathroom itself and I don't recall that). I have had a good look and can't see anything obvious, and the plumber wasn't able to tell us where either. 

 

I am not relishing being sandwiched in the middle of all of this, to be honest, I have enough stress in my life.

 

 

 

Insurance has said they may cover the incidental damage depending on what the plumber says the issue was, but that still leaves us chasing the contractor. I am guessing that his liability has no limits to the amount he charged for, and if a new bathroom tray and tiles are required, then those costs are on him? I guess the issue is between whether given he likely messed it up in the first place, we trust him to remediate, but if we don't we may not have a claim at all since 'right of repair' etc? 

 

I guess if we allowed him to remediate we could ask for an independent check of the work he has done throughout.

 

 


itxtme
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  #3077664 18-May-2023 21:48
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Couple of thoughts

 

  • Don't get any remedial work started until you have gotten to the bottom of what the actual issue is.
  • If your assumption is correct then you should be able to use the shower again and not experience the issue again.
  • Do a flood test.  I would fill the shower with water up to just below the lip of the upstand and properly block the drain.  This should not leak out anywhere if its been properly installed.  SO you should be able to leave it for 24 hours with no reduction in water (assuming you properly plug the drain)
  • One option is to hire or borrow a thermal camera and use Hot water to see where the leak is occurring if the flood test fails.

Out of interest what makes the plumber so sure this is the cause of the issue if he cannot see where its coming from?  Have you got downlights in the room below the shower?  I would be pulling them out and getting my camera phone up there to look to see where the water is coming from.

 

BTW it is not common to waterproof the entire bathroom area if there is an upstand to stop the water exiting the tiled shower area

 

If the cause of this is improper installation then you 100% have rights under the CGA.  Its getting the money back that can be the issue


networkn

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  #3077667 18-May-2023 21:55
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So the plumber removed the downlights and can see there are watermarks under the shower in the ensuite, but he said without removing tiles he wouldn't be able to see where the leak exactly came from. We won't be doing anything without knowing what the actual issue is and what the situation with our insurance company is.

I really need this like a hole in the head right now.

Life sometimes feels like a shit sandwich and it's always lunchtime.

itxtme
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  #3077675 18-May-2023 23:07
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I hear you re the stresses with this and life in general so assuming you have another bathroom use that and just forget about it for a couple of days.  The problem wont get worst, deal with it in the weekend when you have more time, and can get your ducks in a row to find out exactly what the issue is.

 

Watch a couple videos on doing a flood test and then do it.  You will see where the problem is, and you can start making plans on remediating the problem.

 

Poor mans plug - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKR6D4ZqqW8
The Test - https://youtu.be/KNyD5xF92Z0?t=723

And then be ready to deal with the excess water once you have a result from this test. Either by sending it down the drain, or with half cut milk bottles to get the rest of the water out, if the problem shows itself quickly.

The second option is to use a 3rd party to get to the bottom of the issue.  A house inspection company will have all of the tools (plugs and thermal cameras) and likely do flood tests of tiled showers as part of their checking on properties for clients as its a chronic problem.  They are obviously going to charge for their time, and tools. 

 

Its important that you keep perspective and deal with it methodically.

 

 


networkn

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  #3077677 18-May-2023 23:18
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This isn't something I feel confident doing myself and would likely get a third party to do as the consequences 9f an error are very high. We need to let insurance decide what's covered and once we know can make some decisions. Yup fortunate to have other bathrooms, but this isn't likely a quick and easy fix and the whole thing is just inconvenient and frustrating and likely expensive.

itxtme
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  #3077678 18-May-2023 23:30
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Yeah 100% and you know that if you produced these levels of workmanship in your space of work you would be on your bike.  So with DIY ruled out get on to a building inspector involved.  

 

I googled in Auckland (no idea where you live) But these guys have decent reviews and and the right tools

 

But honestly I would ring any inspection company with the right tools and explain the issue and ask for a price.  Say you want non-invasive moisture readings, thermal camera inspection, and flood test as you need the report to show the exact issue for contractor liability, and so it can be appropriately fixed. 

Good luck and keep us posted


mattwnz
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  #3077681 18-May-2023 23:42
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Been there with leaking upstairs showers. The industry is a nightmare IMO. Currently having trouble getting a plumber just to repair another plumbers work. They either don't want the work, they don't want to fix other plumbers works, or they don't turn up to do a quote. It is the wild west.  


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