2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

Forums › Health and fitness › 2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2973606 27-Sep-2022 16:11

It all comes down now to personal evaluation of risk, cost (not financial but lifestyle, convenience etc) and benefit. If you're stressed about catching COVID, you can wear an N95 and/or limit your exposure by adjusting your social and travel habits. Use in medical and aged care facilities seems sensible. I kept wearing them in shops etc until the rules were changed very recently, but my observation is that compliance was tailing off quite rapidly. If I was doing a daily commute by train or bus I'd give consideration to wearing one on there.

The government have a tricky balance to attempt between what is scientifically best, what is socially acceptable and what is good enough.

johno1234

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#2973623 27-Sep-2022 17:01

sir1963:

This one ?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/470947/masks-need-to-be-mandated-in-most-indoor-settings-to-prevent-really-grim-winter-baker

No. But I did cite that one in the same post earlier in this thread to show how Baker had updated his guidance.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/473986/covid-19-mask-requirements-are-less-critical-professor-michael-baker

From the above:

'Baker said he does think mask wearing should still be required in many health settings.

"At the very least I think we should look at keeping mask requirements in health care facilities and aged care because then you've got lots of vulnerable people."'

By comparison, Rod Jackson thinks they should be retained on public transport.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/09/covid-19-government-made-mistake-dropping-mask-mandates-on-public-transport-epidemiologist.html

Regarding N95 mask usage: Aerosol scientists say they block 90%+, compared to 60% or less for medical masks. So if people are concerned about COVID they really need to stick to N95s. If they are wearing anything less, there's no point in worrying about what others are wearing.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/01/covid-19-health-expert-calls-for-widespread-use-of-n95-masks-say-surgical-masks-not-good-enough.html

xlinknz

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#2973862 27-Sep-2022 20:35

sir1963:

If we are out, we are masked, and we still avoid shops as much as possible, we are doing far more online now.

I have friends who have cancer, so we do all we can not to add misery to their lives.

The "its over" is only so the government does not bleed more votes, but there will be an increase in infections and deaths.

Would we be so blasé if 58 people were shot last week ?

Indeed, I was saying to my wife today if 58 died of many other single causes each week there would be a lot more reaction

It would seem many many feel death from covid is something that occurs to others irrespective whether oneself could be the cause of a death

itxtme

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#2973980 28-Sep-2022 09:40

xlinknz:

sir1963:

If we are out, we are masked, and we still avoid shops as much as possible, we are doing far more online now.

I have friends who have cancer, so we do all we can not to add misery to their lives.

The "its over" is only so the government does not bleed more votes, but there will be an increase in infections and deaths.

Would we be so blasé if 58 people were shot last week ?

Indeed, I was saying to my wife today if 58 died of many other single causes each week there would be a lot more reaction

It would seem many many feel death from covid is something that occurs to others irrespective whether oneself could be the cause of a death

Honestly I get your sentiment. However the reality of a post/end pandemic is that it becomes endemic. Much like the flu that on a normal year kills 500+ people. The fact is that this virus is now less deadly than influenza, however still much more transmissible (hence the higher death rate). Personal responsibility is the way forward.

You cannot expect others to do it for you any longer, get vaccinated, wear a mask, access testing early, take antivirals if you meet the criteria. Oh and dont put other people at risk senselessly by not doing these things.

Like I have said before the only way this ends now is by vaccination and infection. We are not flattening curves any longer.

One last point in regards to "Indeed, I was saying to my wife today if 58 died of many other single causes each week there would be a lot more reaction". People do, and we dont. Heart disease for example 112 a week, double current covid mortality (which is tracking down, not up).

DS248

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#2974020 28-Sep-2022 10:13

Early signs of a new C19 wave in UK.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/27/health/uk-fall-wave-covid-us/index.html

The Zoe Health Study referred to is interesting, with it's 1 - 2 week lead in identifying case trends. Hadn't heard of that study before.

Something similar would be a useful adjunct to the tools we have here.

xlinknz

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#2974075 28-Sep-2022 11:56

itxtme:

Honestly I get your sentiment. However the reality of a post/end pandemic is that it becomes endemic. Much like the flu that on a normal year kills 500+ people. The fact is that this virus is now less deadly than influenza, however still much more transmissible (hence the higher death rate). Personal responsibility is the way forward.

You cannot expect others to do it for you any longer, get vaccinated, wear a mask, access testing early, take antivirals if you meet the criteria. Oh and dont put other people at risk senselessly by not doing these things.

Like I have said before the only way this ends now is by vaccination and infection. We are not flattening curves any longer.

One last point in regards to "Indeed, I was saying to my wife today if 58 died of many other single causes each week there would be a lot more reaction". People do, and we dont. Heart disease for example 112 a week, double current covid mortality (which is tracking down, not up).

Thank you for the reply and fair points however

Covid is currently causing five fold the number of deaths than the flu (add I suspect the demographic for deaths by flu is not people in their 30s, 40 or 50s?) but as you say it (covid) is coming down and even at double the flu deaths may simply become 'the norm'

In regards to the heart disease comparison, their is a big difference, I cannot get heart disease from someone else!

Hypothetically if people could know they were the source of a covid death (esp. of someone close) would they in hindsight regret being casual about mask use or other mitigation's if they were as I am sure many who have lost someone have wondered that

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johno1234

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#2975428 30-Sep-2022 12:29

Re the hypothetical case above: If the source person knew they had COVID then absolutely. However it seems unlikely that a knowingly COVID infectious person would exposed a vulnerable loved one to it. More likely they didn't know they were positive so would have no reason to be feeling guilty about it after the tragic outcome.

My frail, demented mother caught COVID in her rest home. They are absolutely massive on protection there. All staff wear masks and are constantly tested. 100% of residents and staff are vaxxed and boosted. Residents didn't wear masks. They could if they wanted to but none did and the demented would just pull them off if masking of residents was attempted. We were unable to visit her for many months, and I believe that her dementia got much worse due to social isolation over this time. For many Orange Light months outside the outright visitor ban, there have been heavy restrictions on visiting. All visitors up until Green Light had to RAT test at the door, and all visitors are still required to mask up, most using the provided surgical mask which researchers tell us is about 50%-60% effective. COVID still got in and almost if not every single resident has caught it. Sadly they had a couple of fatalities. My mother was given antiviral medication and her symptoms never got worse than a minor cough that cleared up after a few days.

There's a certain finger-in-dyke futility around COVID prevention. Masks are not preventing it from spreading - they might be slowing it, but we're no longer trying to flatten the curve as COVID illness itself is not at a level that creates great pressure on the health system.

If people want to avoid COVID they will need to wear N95 masks and stay away from other people. Other people masking up isn't stopping it.

chatterbox

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#2975709 1-Oct-2022 08:25

Rikkitic:
johno1234:

“Blather”. “Whinge”. Time to accept other people have opinions and show a little respect.

Sorry for the colourful language but it works both ways. Those who don't want to wear masks need to consider others they may be exposing to added risk, and not just their own minor inconveniences. I wear a mask whenever I go out and my glasses also get foggy but I have learned to live with it. So can others. Complaining about this kind of thing is ignoring the inconvenient fact that others are put at added risk and that Covid has not in fact gone away. With everyone breathing on each other again, it is more likely than not that there will be another wave, maybe worse than the ones that have gone before. The virus is not standing still. It continues to evolve.

Viruses do evolve but won’t evolve to the point where vaccines or prior infection is rendered ineffective. That would require a whole new virus and a whole new pandemic.

If you view masks as being protective, the inconvenience trade off is acceptable. People who viewed masks as being restrictive and were just following an unenforced rule were always going to drop masking. Masks are a visual reassurance for vulnerable people, yet it’s also been a false reassurance. Masks didn’t reduce our case numbers, infection induced immunity did. There isn’t any other plausible explanation. Creates a conundrum doesn’t it?

I dropped masking because as you’ve pointed out, COVID’s never going away and the thought of masking indefinitely was quite depressing. I agree masks are probably most beneficial when worn by the infected person. My issue with that is, the mandate covered practically everyone despite knowing the vast majority didn’t have covid. The obvious issue is people are infectious when presymptomatic, asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic and ascribe symptoms to hay fever etc That doesn’t change the fact most people in the community don’t have covid. This was also true during the peak of our waves.

One might argue that being unmasked is a selfish act that shows a lack of consideration for vulnerable people. Alternatively one could argue it’s the vulnerable folk who are being selfish by insisting people mask despite not having covid. There’s no apparent recognition of previous sacrifices and harms suffered due to covid policies. Instead they ask for more, wanting people to forego the joy of breathing unimpeded by a mask, indefinitely. I disagree it was a political decision to remove the mask mandate. There simply isn’t any evidence that mask mandates work at the population level to prevent case numbers from rising or force case numbers down. Our own waves are proof of that. Do I think masks have a role in protecting people from covid? Absolutely. But it’s at the level of the individual. Masks aren’t the only tool in the box. If the message you take away from the pandemic is that you have to stay home to stay safe then public health has drastically failed you. Because that statement isn’t true either.

Rikkitic

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#2975743 1-Oct-2022 10:46

chatterbox:

My issue isn't so much with masking as such, but more with the reaction of many to the removal of the mask mandate. Suddenly it is party time. The war has been won. No-one has to worry about the virus any longer. Let's all clump together and celebrate. People act like the virus isn't there any longer just because they don't have to wear masks. It is this attitude of nonchalance that irritates me as a vulnerable person.

The virus has not disappeared. Infection is still possible and the consequences of it are not minor. This article is well worth reading by anyone who thinks getting Covid is no longer a big deal and you can just take an anti-viral and forget about it.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

freitasm

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#2987680 25-Oct-2022 12:50

Covid cases on first cruise ship to Napier and Wellington - NZ Herald

Surely people who wants to open everything and have no masks mandates have no problem with this.

The first cruise ship to return to Napier and Wellington in two and a half years has Covid-19 cases on board.

The Ovation of the Seas was carrying about 4500 passengers and crew when it arrived in Napier Port on Monday morning.

Medical officer of health Dr Bridget Wilson said she was "confident that Covid-19 cases [on the ship] are being isolated appropriately and their contacts managed in line with our current domestic settings".

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Paul1977

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#2987739 25-Oct-2022 13:37

freitasm:

Covid cases on first cruise ship to Napier and Wellington - NZ Herald

Surely people who wants to open everything and have no masks mandates have no problem with this.

I don't have a problem with that at all. If we accept COVID as being endemic at this point then it's not surprising that a group of 4500 people has some COVID cases. You're no more likely to catch COVID off one of these tourists than you are from someone at the supermarket.

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johno1234

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#2987741 25-Oct-2022 13:39

Paul1977:

freitasm:

Covid cases on first cruise ship to Napier and Wellington - NZ Herald

Surely people who wants to open everything and have no masks mandates have no problem with this.

I don't have a problem with that at all. If we accept COVID as being endemic at this point then it's not surprising that a group of 4500 people has some COVID cases. You're no more likely to catch COVID off one of these tourists than you are from someone at the supermarket.

Or from someone at a conference, hotel, restaurant, gym, bar etc. Cruise ships are just large resorts that happen to float and move around.

Rikkitic

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#2988107 25-Oct-2022 21:58

I wouldn't go near one of those floating petri dishes if they paid me.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Jase2985

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#2988108 25-Oct-2022 22:04

Rikkitic:

I wouldn't go near one of those floating petri dishes if they paid me.

thats the great thing about this country you can make your own choice on things like that

Batman

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#2988124 26-Oct-2022 06:59

johno1234:

Re the hypothetical case above: If the source person knew they had COVID then absolutely. However it seems unlikely that a knowingly COVID infectious person would exposed a vulnerable loved one to it. More likely they didn't know they were positive so would have no reason to be feeling guilty about it after the tragic outcome.

My frail, demented mother caught COVID in her rest home. They are absolutely massive on protection there. All staff wear masks and are constantly tested. 100% of residents and staff are vaxxed and boosted. Residents didn't wear masks. They could if they wanted to but none did and the demented would just pull them off if masking of residents was attempted. We were unable to visit her for many months, and I believe that her dementia got much worse due to social isolation over this time. For many Orange Light months outside the outright visitor ban, there have been heavy restrictions on visiting. All visitors up until Green Light had to RAT test at the door, and all visitors are still required to mask up, most using the provided surgical mask which researchers tell us is about 50%-60% effective. COVID still got in and almost if not every single resident has caught it. Sadly they had a couple of fatalities. My mother was given antiviral medication and her symptoms never got worse than a minor cough that cleared up after a few days.

There's a certain finger-in-dyke futility around COVID prevention. Masks are not preventing it from spreading - they might be slowing it, but we're no longer trying to flatten the curve as COVID illness itself is not at a level that creates great pressure on the health system.

If people want to avoid COVID they will need to wear N95 masks and stay away from other people. Other people masking up isn't stopping it.

the mental health toll of living like zombies and scaring children and adults into anxiety and teens into depression is just as bad as the death toll if not worse.

also the physical collateral damage of people not getting healthcare access for other things - my 10 year old had fever over 40C last month and extremely painful throat and MY GP PRACTICE refused to see him, covid rules etc. did a zoom consult, can't see his throat and the doctor actually said ah probably nothing. i went to another one who would see him, looked into the throat, was bright red and had pus coming out all over and they diagnosed strep throat and gave him high dose antibiotics.

then read this yesterday https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/parents-questions-for-wellington-hospitals-after-son-sebby-chua-dies-unexpectedly-after-short-illness/IZYTRLZCUWGZ2PQSDSTKA7J5GQ/

absolutely devastating. could have been my kid.

as you alluded to, being scared of covid now has far greater implications than the covid itself

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