2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2510068 22-Jun-2020 21:31

1101:

Some of those untested were mingling with more recent arrivals. There wasnt the separation of new & old arrivals
So those due for release could have easily picked up covid from untested new arrivals .
They are supposed to be protecting against worst case scenario .

The whole reason we are spending so many $$$ on quarantining is due to the supposedly high risk of infecting others.
If its a non issue (judging by actions) then why bother ?

@1101 I am not disagreeing or downplaying that the loose and disorganized quarantine and isolation was a serious problem (and we may yet see community transmission as a result, hopefully not) but what is done is unfortunately done. I am now assuming that quarantine and isolation is now strict and tight

However unlike inbound quarantine and isolation which can be controlled by virtue of what it is my concern is now about aircrew which still operates on a trust model but I understand today or tomorrow MoH are meeting with AIR NZ... Also it is unclear to me how maritime controls will be applied

Since air crew do not do 14 days quarantine are they now under going mandatory and regular testing?

mattwnz

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#2510138 23-Jun-2020 01:35

lxsw20:

Govt considering a co-payments for people in Quarantine in the coming weeks. Be interesting to see what $ they come up with.

Maybe they could instead do a loan system, like student loans? We have the infrastructure to do it through the IRD. I think it needs to be user pays. Tax payers have already raked up enough debt from this, and I understand Oz are doing user pays.

Maybe it is tough, but the debt the country has racked up, and the money NZers have lost, and the reduced interest rates, means many elderly now hardly get any income from their life savings in the bank, due to the reserve bank crushing the OCR as a result of Covid economic effects

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#2510139 23-Jun-2020 01:42

Batman:

mattwnz:

The other thing is whether people will admit to not feeling 100%. Someone may just have mild symptoms and feel a bit under the weather, which is different to not having any symptoms at all. This relies on trust that people are admitting they don't feel well.

Everyone who gets off a flight in AKL will feel rubbish. You are talking 4-24 hrs of flying.

This is probably why everyone coming through the border should be tested as soon as they arrive. Not just at day 3. Some travelers have far higher risk than others, due to the location they are coming from India is also a huge hotspot it appears.

The other thing is according to Q&A last night, I heard health minister say that airlines are responsible for ensuring that people boarding their plane were well and not sick. Why not fine airlines for each positive Covid case they bring in? This would help ensure they do testing and potentially some form of self isolation before the trip. I can't believe that flights aren't physically distancing passengers or requiring masks. We have to have high standards, being one of the only supposed covid free countries in the world.

What is the different between a plane of passengers, together for 4-24 hours, and people on a cruise ship? SARS was certainly transmitted on planes, and apparently this is more infectious than SARS

lxsw20

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#2510140 23-Jun-2020 02:46

mattwnz:

lxsw20:

Govt considering a co-payments for people in Quarantine in the coming weeks. Be interesting to see what $ they come up with.

Maybe they could instead do a loan system, like student loans? We have the infrastructure to do it through the IRD. I think it needs to be user pays. Tax payers have already raked up enough debt from this, and I understand Oz are doing user pays.

Maybe it is tough, but the debt the country has racked up, and the money NZers have lost, and the reduced interest rates, means many elderly now hardly get any income from their life savings in the bank, due to the reserve bank crushing the OCR as a result of Covid economic effects

While it may be a feel good factor for some in NZ that it becomes user pays, in reality it's a drop in the ocean in the scheme of things.

The financial implications are global. I would hope people counting on their life savings have them in a relatively low risk investment if getting towards/in retirement.

Wander4821

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#2510144 23-Jun-2020 05:42

New Zealand is having re-absorb large numbers of citizens from overseas all at once, as if there was some major war, in this case a major flu pandemic. 1 News did a brief bit describing cost of quarantine at $3000, though that is in addition to hypothetical future costs of stay.

With hypothetical future costs that is down to why they returned, the state of their finances, and whether they have qualifications beneficial to employers post Covid-19 pandemic, and of course how long they stay. If it is a short visit, there is a cost to the taxpayer, if the later then it could a short term cost for long term gain.

NZ has always had a brain drain, so the positive thing might be to convince skilled workers to come home for good and fill some shortages.

Though, a lot of folks returning regardless of having qualifications or not will be cash strapped due to global Covid-19 restrictions making it hard to work and earn more funds to live on prior to returning to NZ.

So the NZ taxpayer is in a hard place, both financially and morally on this. Effectively, it is hard in a moral sense to deny a NZ'er support when they've returned due to a tough situation out of their control. Then it is hard in a financial sense, as the costs of paying for all those returning people will add up, and even if user pays was introduced they'd likely not have the $3000 to spend after airfares and transit expenses.

GV27

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#2510151 23-Jun-2020 06:53

Wander4821:

NZ has always had a brain drain, so the positive thing might be to convince skilled workers to come home for good and fill some shortages.

Successive governments have addressed this through high levels of immigration, which has a suppressant effect on wages. Given we have a massive labour surplus, we have to be really sure we understand the consequences of adding more people.

There was a lawyer on RNZ this morning saying the 'right to return' in the BORA means you can't even really ask for a co-payment.

This is the problem, for my mind. The country has 20% of its citizenry living overseas at any given time, and as some have been saying for years, when something goes wrong globally, most of them are going to want to come home. Regardless of your stance on whether you should be able to demand immediate entry or support in a country you haven't contributed towards for years/decades, there is no getting away from the fact we already have infrastructure and housing issues with our current population.

I don't think the 'right to return' has ever been contemplated in a 'all at once, into a country that can't really support the existing population' scenario. Whether we have a choice or not is besides the point; we have to make sure we have a good handle on the effects on NZ in the short/medium term and plan accordingly.

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SepticSceptic

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#2510165 23-Jun-2020 06:56

Wander4821: ....So the NZ taxpayer is in a hard place, both financially and morally on this. Effectively, it is hard in a moral sense to deny a NZ'er support when they've returned due to a tough situation out of their control. Then it is hard in a financial sense, as the costs of paying for all those returning people will add up, and even if user pays was introduced they'd likely not have the $3000 to spend after airfares and transit expenses.

And ongoing support. Unemployment benefits. Not like they will be coming back to a job. Skilled or not.
Good and reasonable medical care, etc, they probably haven't contributed to for years.

Dingbatt

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#2510178 23-Jun-2020 07:58

mattwnz:

Why not fine airlines for each positive Covid case they bring in?

How do you think they will achieve this? For an illness that can take 5-10 days to show symptoms.
A questionnaire that asks “Are you ill?”

If you mean that airlines require passengers to ‘pre-isolate’ how is that going to work? So someone in Mumbai (a current hotspot) is expected to self isolate, who monitors that? Then, on trust, they get on a flight to Brisbane. Do they then self isolate there? I’m sure the Aussies would think that’s a good idea (not).

If they did what you suggest, Airlines would either increase fares astronomically to cover being fined, refuse to carry passengers from certain regions or just stop flying here completely. I guess that would suit people that advocate slamming the borders closed completely because it may stem the flow somewhat.

By the way, inbound vessels are required to declare any known illness to border authorities prior to arrival.

As far as payment for quarantine, Megan Woods indicated this morning that some sort of co-payment is being developed. What I hadn’t considered was people doing multiple exits/entries and getting two weeks on the taxpayer. I believe you should only get it subsidised for repatriation. Once you are in NZ that’s it. If you choose to leave the country, you should be liable for all costs on your return.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Wander4821

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#2510181 23-Jun-2020 08:01

Successive governments have addressed this through high levels of immigration, which has a suppressant effect on wages. Given we have a massive labour surplus, we have to be really sure we understand the consequences of adding more people.

Depends on the career, and governments would be hard pressed to know what careers are going to be where to grow the economy right now, beyond that tourism is largely out the window in a global recession.

NZ needs nurses and teachers at minimum, though there are a lot of other categories of real need. Ultimately the government is going to have to review those categories, when Covid-19 abates enough to allow them to make those sorts of decisions on immigration.

tdgeek

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#2510182 23-Jun-2020 08:09

Dingbatt:

mattwnz:

Why not fine airlines for each positive Covid case they bring in?

How do you think they will achieve this? For an illness that can take 5-10 days to show symptoms.
A questionnaire that asks “Are you ill?”

If you mean that airlines require passengers to ‘pre-isolate’ how is that going to work? So someone in Mumbai (a current hotspot) is expected to self isolate, who monitors that? Then, on trust, they get on a flight to Brisbane. Do they then self isolate there? I’m sure the Aussies would think that’s a good idea (not).

If they did what you suggest, Airlines would either increase fares astronomically to cover being fined, refuse to carry passengers from certain regions or just stop flying here completely. I guess that would suit people that advocate slamming the borders closed completely because it may stem the flow somewhat.

By the way, inbound vessels are required to declare any known illness to border authorities prior to arrival.

As far as payment for quarantine, Megan Woods indicated this morning that some sort of co-payment is being developed. What I hadn’t considered was people doing multiple exits/entries and getting two weeks on the taxpayer. I believe you should only get it subsidised for repatriation. Once you are in NZ that’s it. If you choose to leave the country, you should be liable for all costs on your return.

Agree. The issue is, we seem to want to close the borders off to help ourselvs, and dump the global issue elsewhere. Thats hardly doing our part. Its complex. The best we can do is take in our Kiwis and manage them best we can, test when they leave the centres, and in time it will dry up.

MikeB4

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#2510183 23-Jun-2020 08:14

tdgeek:

Agree. The issue is, we seem to want to close the borders off to help ourselvs, and dump the global issue elsewhere. Thats hardly doing our part. Its complex. The best we can do is take in our Kiwis and manage them best we can, test when they leave the centres, and in time it will dry up.

The issue with this is they are making a complete hash of it. The whole thing is an amateur hour balls up. They should stop the flights until they have their act together.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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tdgeek

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#2510186 23-Jun-2020 08:24

MikeB4:

tdgeek:

Agree. The issue is, we seem to want to close the borders off to help ourselvs, and dump the global issue elsewhere. Thats hardly doing our part. Its complex. The best we can do is take in our Kiwis and manage them best we can, test when they leave the centres, and in time it will dry up.

The issue with this is they are making a complete hash of it. The whole thing is an amateur hour balls up. They should stop the flights until they have their act together.

Yep. thats an option. The incomings are now kept away from us, they are testing at day 3 and 12 and when they leave, there are no exceptions for compassionate grounds, thats a start. When will they have their act together? The Police failed as they physically managed this. Same woth the military who have been there all along and AC Digby has been there a month as well, still failures. An MP is now involved, Police and Military numbers have been increased. So, when we will we accept that things have improved?

Wander4821

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#2510187 23-Jun-2020 08:26

Agree. The issue is, we seem to want to close the borders off to help ourselvs, and dump the global issue elsewhere. Thats hardly doing our part. Its complex. The best we can do is take in our Kiwis and manage them best we can, test when they leave the centres, and in time it will dry up.

Sounds like a Donald Trump solution to close borders as well, as what if Covid-19 is persistent into next year globally.

Question to ask would be, could NZ really afford to close off to business travellers, tourists, and international students that long, even with potential Covid-19 re-introduction as a risk?

Because even if hypothetically the best measures are taken, there will be slip ups. NZ could realistically be going back and forth between no cases and some cases for some time yet, and there will be growing pressure to let those travellers in for economic reasons.

tdgeek

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#2510197 23-Jun-2020 08:41

I get the feeling here that the desire is no passenger planes to arrive at all, period. If it was decreed that the border issues are all solved and its secure, is everybody happy to allow arrivals? Doesnt seem so IMO

tdgeek

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#2510247 23-Jun-2020 09:17

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/300039789/auckland-isolation-hotel-goes-from-fawlty-towers-to-tight-ship

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