EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#2287160 1-Aug-2019 14:18

From Stuff: NZ's future is electric cars, not hydrogen-powered, Z Energy concludes

"The process of creating hydrogen from sources such as natural gas or the electrolysis of water uses more energy than can be created from burning the hydrogen that is then produced.

That means hydrogen can be better thought of as an alternative way of storing and transporting energy first created from electricity or hydrocarbons – so akin to a battery – rather than as an alternative original fuel source."

Pretty much a reword of what Elon Musk said about 6 years ago.

Guilliman

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#2287724 2-Aug-2019 14:22

There are all sorts of research efforts towards lowering the energy cost of electrolysis but as yet I'm not aware of anything that's turned into a commercial enterprise. So yes, until that changes hydrogen isn't in the mix yet. Also, as far as I know, fuel-cell cars have their own issues. I think they're more particular about ambient temps than lithium batteries?

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wellygary

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#2287729 2-Aug-2019 14:46

Guilliman: There are all sorts of research efforts towards lowering the energy cost of electrolysis but as yet I'm not aware of anything that's turned into a commercial enterprise. So yes, until that changes hydrogen isn't in the mix yet. Also, as far as I know, fuel-cell cars have their own issues. I think they're more particular about ambient temps than lithium batteries?

The boat for H2 in light vehicles has sailed, Batteries have won..... There is still a chance for Hydrogen in large vehicles, but it will need to be quick..

Hydrogen's best potential is as a load balancer to substitute for peakers, (FF or otherwise)

Its electrical inefficiencies mean you need to have large scale baseload generation (essentially nuclear) with defined surplus periods, which is used to generate H2 for future use to add back to the grid at peak times....

If they can get that to work, then there is the potential to grow Transport off that ,

But For NZ, the low cost of renewables and small scale grid ( we have nothing more than 1GW nameplate rating) means we are never going to build enough surplus generation to make the H2 equation work......

MarkH67

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#2287743 2-Aug-2019 15:30

wellygary:

Hydrogen's best potential is as a load balancer to substitute for peakers, (FF or otherwise)

Its electrical inefficiencies mean you need to have large scale baseload generation (essentially nuclear) with defined surplus periods, which is used to generate H2 for future use to add back to the grid at peak times....

If they can get that to work, then there is the potential to grow Transport off that ,

How would the efficiency of that compare with pumped hydro?

SaltyNZ

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#2287746 2-Aug-2019 15:37

wellygary:

Its electrical inefficiencies mean you need to have large scale baseload generation (essentially nuclear) with defined surplus periods, which is used to generate H2 for future use to add back to the grid at peak times....

But even then you still need to solve the third of three problems - storing it. Hydrogen gas needs to be stored at incredibly high pressure in order for useful amounts to be stored in a reasonable volume. This in turn means high pressure pumps & pipes with all the safety issues that entails. H2 at high pressure also has the nasty habits of leaking out of the tiniest cracks and alloying itself with the metal you made your tank out of. And an iron-hydrogen alloy is a very weak alloy.

You could choose to store it as a cryogenic liquid instead, but now you've got all the issues of super-cold highly flammable liquid that also tries to leak out of everywhere it can.

Hydrogen is the perfect fuel, except for being terrible in every way.

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kingdragonfly

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#2289004 3-Aug-2019 12:17

Good NZ website about Renault Zoe, from "EV Wiki NZ"

Includes

* How to Buy a Renault Zoe in NZ

* Importing a Zoe from the UK

http://evwiki.co.nz/Renault_Zoe

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kingdragonfly

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#2289297 3-Aug-2019 19:08

Electric tug ordered for Auckland Port.

It's a world first.

The manufacturer does have hybrid models, but this one is battery powered only.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/114728168/ports-of-auckland-fights-climate-change-with-worlds-first-etug

old3eyes

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#2289423 4-Aug-2019 08:50

kingdragonfly: Electric tug ordered for Auckland Port.

It's a world first.

The manufacturer does have hybrid models, but this one is battery powered only.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/114728168/ports-of-auckland-fights-climate-change-with-worlds-first-etug

$18 mil. Twice the price of a normal diesel tug. Guess the Ports of Auckland has lots of spare cash.

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paulchinnz

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#2289432 4-Aug-2019 09:24

$9 mil for this sort of advertising could have a good ROI...

Delphinus

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#2289445 4-Aug-2019 10:02

"So while we pay more up front, over the life of the tug we'll save around $12 million in operating costs, making our electric tug cheaper in the long term," he said.

"The life of the tug is around 25 years. By going electric now, we save 25 years of diesel pollution.

"In 2016 we set the goal of being zero emission by 2040 because we recognise that urgent action is needed on climate change. However, setting that goal created a tough challenge," Gibson said.

The port's current 70 tonne bollard pull tug Hauraki uses about 120 litres of diesel an hour. In 2019 it consumed 190,926 litres of diesel.

Saves money and reduces emissions. Good on them.

tdgeek

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#2289554 4-Aug-2019 12:17

Delphinus:

"So while we pay more up front, over the life of the tug we'll save around $12 million in operating costs, making our electric tug cheaper in the long term," he said.

"The life of the tug is around 25 years. By going electric now, we save 25 years of diesel pollution.

"In 2016 we set the goal of being zero emission by 2040 because we recognise that urgent action is needed on climate change. However, setting that goal created a tough challenge," Gibson said.

The port's current 70 tonne bollard pull tug Hauraki uses about 120 litres of diesel an hour. In 2019 it consumed 190,926 litres of diesel.

Saves money and reduces emissions. Good on them.

Thats good, as is anything else electric, but as these things come on stream they are using power that as yet, we dont generate. We can't order more rain. We cant build, another hydro next week, or add 600 wind turbines the week after. I guess we will just burn more FF to make up the extra for these green ideas?

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Obraik

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#2289604 4-Aug-2019 14:09

tdgeek:

Delphinus:

"So while we pay more up front, over the life of the tug we'll save around $12 million in operating costs, making our electric tug cheaper in the long term," he said.

"The life of the tug is around 25 years. By going electric now, we save 25 years of diesel pollution.

"In 2016 we set the goal of being zero emission by 2040 because we recognise that urgent action is needed on climate change. However, setting that goal created a tough challenge," Gibson said.

The port's current 70 tonne bollard pull tug Hauraki uses about 120 litres of diesel an hour. In 2019 it consumed 190,926 litres of diesel.

Saves money and reduces emissions. Good on them.

Thats good, as is anything else electric, but as these things come on stream they are using power that as yet, we dont generate. We can't order more rain. We cant build, another hydro next week, or add 600 wind turbines the week after. I guess we will just burn more FF to make up the extra for these green ideas?

I'd love to see your workings that led you to the conclusion that we don't have the capacity to generate enough power to charge this tug boat.

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Delphinus

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#2289616 4-Aug-2019 14:20

tdgeek:

Thats good, as is anything else electric, but as these things come on stream they are using power that as yet, we dont generate. We can't order more rain. We cant build, another hydro next week, or add 600 wind turbines the week after. I guess we will just burn more FF to make up the extra for these green ideas?

From what I read there was only a single tug purchased, and NZ's power generation doesn't run at 100% capacity 100% of the time? Yes additional loads on the grid (new houses, new businesses, new EV's) require more generation. That is life. You can also build more generation capacity as demand increases. That is also how the world works.

Or are you suggesting we are never going to build more wind turbines, or add more solar? And should never change anything that might increase grid demand (no new houses, no new businesses, no EV's, no anything?).

SaltyNZ

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#2289991 5-Aug-2019 08:06

tdgeek:

I guess we will just burn more FF to make up the extra for these green ideas?

Even if that were true - which it isn't - studies have already shown that a fleet of electric vehicles running off coal fired electricity are still beneficial compared to that same fleet running off petrol & diesel combustion engines. For starters, the pollution moves away from where people breathe it, and in addition, a giant coal fired power station is more efficient than a small combustion engine.

It's obviously not as good as if the generation was clean, and the difference it makes depends on the mix of vehicles and how they are charged (fast charging is inefficient), but it's not worse.

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Batman

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#2290021 5-Aug-2019 09:04

Depends on which study you read

https://www.wsj.com/articles/germanys-dirty-green-cars-11556057770

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