Easter 4km/h tolerance?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Easter 4km/h tolerance?

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199 posts

Master Geek

#1276725 3-Apr-2015 13:54

itxtme: The most bizarre thing about the entire policy is the distinct lack of evidence to support it. They had a very succesful campaign last year (or year before) in the sense that nobody died on the roads over a holiday period. Since then the road deaths have been higher. Yet they still claim it reduces road deaths... Anybody with half a brain can work out a sample size of one holiday period is hardly rock solid validation for a massive assumption.

Take this one step further, and there has been no data to indicate speed as a crash factor in deaths except when it is excessive, ie. well over the "tolerance" levels.

To me these campaigns are about presence, with a fingers crossed approach to road policing. Publicly it looks like they are doing all that they can, in reality that is far from the truth.

NZ Police, and Government in general, have never let a minor thing like a lack of sound evidence get in their way of a propaganda campaign. It's all a case of appearing to be doing something that is popular to win support for the next 3-year trough session. Speed is an easy one because it's a common misconception that speed is the problem, not bad driving and crashing. Sure, if you're going faster then when you crash the likelihood of injury is higher - but what about when you don't crash? People that choose to go faster than is prudent at the time will do so regardless of the posted speed limit.

Also, beware the term "excessive speed" - when used in the road crash statistics it refers to speed considered too fast for the conditions. Not simply in excess of the posted speed limit.

Speed is also very easy to measure, especially from a distance, and turn into a strict liability offence. So it's easy to police.

It's my belief that speed is not the problem people believe it is. People simply don't take driving seriously enough - that's the real problem. When you treat people like children, guess what they become.

There aren't many examples of unregulated speed being tried - but the one in Montana where daytime speed limits were removed is one I always remember. Road trauma dropped. People started to actually engage their brains in the exercise of driving.

Part of the the trouble with having a posted speed limit is people think that you can drive at that speed on that road, all the time, because in their mind someone has measured and decreed that it's safe to do so, instead of reading the road conditions.

Benoire

2799 posts

Uber Geek

#1276734 3-Apr-2015 14:24

I agree with Tony that treating drivers like children has reduced ability. The 'Safe Systems' approach promoted by the NZTA (and therefore adopted by local road controlling authorities due to funding) basically encourages poor driver ability by removing many of the decisions from the driver, instead of making the driver be aware of the surrounding and the rules it has dumbed down the environment considerably... It has catered for the human infallibility to the detriment of everyone else by making every one else drive in a similar manner.

freitasm

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Geekzone

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#1276735 3-Apr-2015 14:24

old3eyes:
scottjpalmer: I've tidied up the racism and sexism, keep it factual and family friendly you lot.

So now you are being the board censor??

No, he's a moderator. He's keeping this a family-friendly show as per our rules.

If people want to show their racism and/or sexism there are other forums where this can be welcome. I am pretty sure discussing speed limits doesn't need to involve either of those two topics.

TonyR1973

199 posts

Master Geek

#1276762 3-Apr-2015 15:42

Benoire: I agree with Tony that treating drivers like children has reduced ability. The 'Safe Systems' approach promoted by the NZTA (and therefore adopted by local road controlling authorities due to funding) basically encourages poor driver ability by removing many of the decisions from the driver, instead of making the driver be aware of the surrounding and the rules it has dumbed down the environment considerably... It has catered for the human infallibility to the detriment of everyone else by making every one else drive in a similar manner.

Absolutely. A classic example of this is those freak'n red arrows almost everywhere. Then you come to an intersection that doesn't have them (very rare now) and drivers haven't a clue what to do.

It's a total waste of time to be sitting at a green light but a red arrow with no vehicles or pedestrians that I'd have to give way to, as below, if it weren't there at all. I can understand them at places where visibility of such vehicles is poor but that is very much the exception.

Zippity

683 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1276765 3-Apr-2015 15:54

I'm sorry that some of you interpreted my comments as being racist.

Here in Wellington, some of the worst offending motorists are indeed non European. That is a fact.

TonyR1973

199 posts

Master Geek

#1276786 3-Apr-2015 16:09

Zippity: I'm sorry that some of you interpreted my comments as being racist.

Here in Wellington, some of the worst offending motorists are indeed non European. That is a fact.

They probably want you conduct a study to determine factors other than ethnicity which may be the reason underlying their poor driving. Like the fact they're from a country, of a certain predominant ethnicity, where driving hasn't, until recently, been something the middle and below classes engaged in and thus it's the fact they're inexperienced drivers, not that they're of a certain ethnicity.

But, even with that possibly being the case, as I'm unable to stop and question drivers as to their level of experience and country of origin prior to them cutting me off, I think I'll stick with the method that has sustained my existence thus far, and instead give extra berth to short, dark haired drivers operating mostly pretentious vehicles with "road user warning chandeliers" swinging from their rear vision mirrors. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.

Benoire

2799 posts

Uber Geek

#1276789 3-Apr-2015 16:18

TonyR1973:
Benoire: I agree with Tony that treating drivers like children has reduced ability. The 'Safe Systems' approach promoted by the NZTA (and therefore adopted by local road controlling authorities due to funding) basically encourages poor driver ability by removing many of the decisions from the driver, instead of making the driver be aware of the surrounding and the rules it has dumbed down the environment considerably... It has catered for the human infallibility to the detriment of everyone else by making every one else drive in a similar manner.

Absolutely. A classic example of this is those freak'n red arrows almost everywhere. Then you come to an intersection that doesn't have them (very rare now) and drivers haven't a clue what to do.

It's a total waste of time to be sitting at a green light but a red arrow with no vehicles or pedestrians that I'd have to give way to, as below, if it weren't there at all. I can understand them at places where visibility of such vehicles is poor but that is very much the exception.

.

A beautiful, the classic example. There is a place for them and that is at really limited forward visibility where it is often sub 40m, but it seems that split phasing signals is the rule here rather than an exception!

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TonyR1973

199 posts

Master Geek

#1276825 3-Apr-2015 17:43

That's turning right onto Lambie Drive from Cavendish Drive. There are many more just like it too. I must make a collection and send them in to get a form letter reply from the NZTA bearing no relevance to the question I'll pose, being "WHY?".

If I'd been first in the queue in that situation, I'd probably have just gone, following a cursory scan for invoice issuers, as I usually do. It really is utterly ridiculous. Bear in mind we'd been sitting there long enough for me to get annoyed, which doesn't happen easily, plus get my phone out and take the photo too. But I have to be a little more careful with the new wave of red light cameras too and increasingly dashcam-owning common sense suppressing, sticky beaks.

MikeB4

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#1276828 3-Apr-2015 17:49

TonyR1973: That's turning right onto Lambie Drive from Cavendish Drive. There are many more just like it too. I must make a collection and send them in to get a form letter reply from the NZTA bearing no relevance to the question I'll pose, being "WHY?".

If I'd been first in the queue in that situation, I'd probably have just gone, following a cursory scan for invoice issuers, as I usually do. It really is utterly ridiculous. Bear in mind we'd been sitting there long enough for me to get annoyed, which doesn't happen easily, plus get my phone out and take the photo too. But I have to be a little more careful with the new wave of red light cameras too and increasingly dashcam-owning common sense suppressing, sticky beaks.

Red light running is extremely foolish and not something to brag about

Aredwood

3885 posts

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#1276836 3-Apr-2015 18:00

The problem is that the govt is too scared to deal with the real big elephant in the room. And that is driver skills - or lack of. There are people on the roads who have not done any kind of practical driving test in over 50 years. And the test that they would have done would be very simple compared to today's full licence test. They need to introduce compulsory practical tests every 10 years. Which can be done at the same time as drivers licences are renewed.

Only problem is that all of those who have bad habits but think that "they" are a good driver. Would get a big reality check.

frankv

5681 posts

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#1276851 3-Apr-2015 18:34

TonyR1973:
There aren't many examples of unregulated speed being tried - but the one in Montana where daytime speed limits were removed is one I always remember. Road trauma dropped. People started to actually engage their brains in the exercise of driving.

Actually, no.

What had been happening was that people in a hurry avoided the heavily policed freeways. The speed limits were removed from the freeways, not the back roads. Then these people started using the relatively safer freeways... the accident rate fell, not on the freeways with no speed limits, but on the back roads where speed limits remained.

But still an interesting example of unexpected consequences.

And a clear indication that the speed limits on the freeways were too low.

frankv

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#1276853 3-Apr-2015 18:46

KiwiNZ:
TonyR1973: That's turning right onto Lambie Drive from Cavendish Drive. There are many more just like it too. I must make a collection and send them in to get a form letter reply from the NZTA bearing no relevance to the question I'll pose, being "WHY?".

If I'd been first in the queue in that situation, I'd probably have just gone, following a cursory scan for invoice issuers, as I usually do. It really is utterly ridiculous. Bear in mind we'd been sitting there long enough for me to get annoyed, which doesn't happen easily, plus get my phone out and take the photo too. But I have to be a little more careful with the new wave of red light cameras too and increasingly dashcam-owning common sense suppressing, sticky beaks.

Red light running is extremely foolish and not something to brag about

Well, it *would* be extremely foolish *IF* it was done dangerously.

Let's not forget that in the US it *is* legal to drive through a red light. Provided you have first stopped and checked that the way is clear, and that you're turning right.

The problem is the one-size-fits-all, lowest-common-denominator, no-thinking-required-or-desired nanny-state laws and regulations... the thinking is clearly that it's better to prevent people from doing something, even if its a good thing, if there's a *chance* it might go wrong. No-one ever got into trouble for preventing a potential accident, after all.

1eStar

1604 posts

Uber Geek

#1276854 3-Apr-2015 18:49

KiwiNZ:
TonyR1973: That's turning right onto Lambie Drive from Cavendish Drive. There are many more just like it too. I must make a collection and send them in to get a form letter reply from the NZTA bearing no relevance to the question I'll pose, being "WHY?".

If I'd been first in the queue in that situation, I'd probably have just gone, following a cursory scan for invoice issuers, as I usually do. It really is utterly ridiculous. Bear in mind we'd been sitting there long enough for me to get annoyed, which doesn't happen easily, plus get my phone out and take the photo too. But I have to be a little more careful with the new wave of red light cameras too and increasingly dashcam-owning common sense suppressing, sticky beaks.

Red light running is extremely foolish and not something to brag about

Yeah, breaking the law is really dangerous. #wishtherewasaplonkbutton

TonyR1973

199 posts

Master Geek

#1276857 3-Apr-2015 18:58

frankv:
TonyR1973:
There aren't many examples of unregulated speed being tried - but the one in Montana where daytime speed limits were removed is one I always remember. Road trauma dropped. People started to actually engage their brains in the exercise of driving.

Actually, no.

What had been happening was that people in a hurry avoided the heavily policed freeways. The speed limits were removed from the freeways, not the back roads. Then these people started using the relatively safer freeways... the accident rate fell, not on the freeways with no speed limits, but on the back roads where speed limits remained.

But still an interesting example of unexpected consequences.

And a clear indication that the speed limits on the freeways were too low.

The fatalities on the 4-lane divided interstate highways were also lower with no specified speed limits.

Bung

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#1276858 3-Apr-2015 18:59

During periods of light traffic why don't those dedicated turn arrows revert to just greens? In Wgtn I'm sure lights are programmed according to demand. In peak time the arrows are the only way to get through some intersections.

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