What will power our vehicles in the future?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › What will power our vehicles in the future?

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1524 posts

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#2848197 12-Jan-2022 13:48

As an energy store its pretty horrid regardless.

Liquid costs a lot to create and keep cold, pressurised is just a mission also. Much better options around.

Rikkitic

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#2848255 12-Jan-2022 14:17

Obraik: I'm surprised how pro-Hydrogen you are.

I'm surprised you think I'm pro-hydrogen.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Sidestep

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#2849366 12-Jan-2022 15:57

Obraik: I'm surprised how pro-Hydrogen you are.

New tech adoption's often kind of tribal, so it's no surprise that the people most vocal against hydrogen 'anything' are those into battery EVs
It reminds me of the arguing between proponents of Sony MiniDiscs and CDs back in my day.
Likely the same result - technology will advance and the latest tech we have now will seem quaint looking back.

I'll certainly laugh about it one day, on the way to the spaceport in my fusion powered flying car:)

Rikkitic:
What about hydrogen as an ICE fuel replacement? It doesn't have to be fuel cells. From the (very) little I know, the conversion is easy and the main issue is just reduced range due to lower energy content.

There are a couple of potential niche uses of hydrogen as a direct ICE fuel replacement.

One's in the massive existing fleet of mobile and stationary diesel powered equipment - generators, military, marine, construction, agricultural and almost all Class 8 trucks.
Because these large diesels are so durable and heavily built, they have lifetimes measured in thousands of hours/millions of miles - and decades.

They're also very expensive and slowly depreciating assets. Operators aren't going to suddenly dispose of them and electrify everything.
Excluding the possibility of a sudden advance in cheap carbon-neutral biofuels, they're going to burning diesel until the 2040 or 50s'

Retrofit Hydrogen injection's an option to reduce the carbon footprint of these large diesel engines (10 to 20 litre displacement)
Displacing up to 40% of diesel used in the combustion process with hydrogen has good results..
A 20 to 30% reduction in consumption, 85% less particulate matter, and a reduction in nitrogen oxides of 60 to 90% is possible.

I saw a presentation by the CEO of a company doing local retrofits - Hydra Energy - recently. What she said made a lot of sense, particularly their sourcing of low-carbon hydrogen.

Another nearby retrofitter is HyTechPower and there are a bunch more US & European companies looking at the tech, including OEM suppliers.

In my mind any path to decarbonisation's a good one.

frankv

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#2849406 12-Jan-2022 17:07

Rikkitic:

What about hydrogen as an ICE fuel replacement? It doesn't have to be fuel cells. From the (very) little I know, the conversion is easy and the main issue is just reduced range due to lower energy content.

NO!!!!

ICE is at best only about 40% efficient, and often much worse. A fuel cell is at worst 40% efficient, and often much better. So you need to make and dispense and transport twice as much hydrogen for ICE compared to fuel cells. It is a sunset technology that shouldn't be extended. It is better to put the effort into converting to the next technology (whether it be hydrogen (or ethanol or whatever) fuel cells or BEV) than prolonging the wastefulness of ICE.

RobDickinson

1524 posts

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#2853202 19-Jan-2022 09:46

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/127528968/honda-thinks-hydrogen-combustion-is-unfeasible

"We have conducted research into every possibility that's out there," Mibe told the publication. "As for hydrogen engines, we see some quite difficult technological challenges. So, about 10 years ago, we decided this would not become mainstream.”

"If we look at what will become mainstream, probably for smaller mobility it will be EVs, and fuel cells for larger mobility," Mibe said. "That is the conclusion so far."

Dingbatt

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#2853218 19-Jan-2022 10:24

First thing I did when I saw your post was Google “Is unfeasible a word?” Because, you know……..Stuff. Turns out it is, but not in common usage. Even my spell correct changed it to infeasible!

Thats what you get when there aren’t any literacy standards required for a journalism degree (or so it would appear).

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

RobDickinson

1524 posts

Uber Geek

#2856430 26-Jan-2022 08:29

https://www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/business-environment-and-energy/why-hydrogen-no-longer-fuel-future

"Brits can buy just two FCEVs from mainstream car makers: the Hyundai Nexo and Toyota Mirai. Last year, just two Nexos and 10 Mirais were registered. By contrast, 190,727 battery electric vehicles (BEVs) were sold – 12% of the car total."

“In terms of passenger vehicles, I don’t see fuel cells as being a significant opportunity, honestly. We’re talking a few thousand annually [by 2030],” said Toyota Motor Europe president Matt Harrison

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elpenguino

3427 posts

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#2856450 26-Jan-2022 09:05

Interesting. Follow the money eh.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Sidestep

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#2856732 26-Jan-2022 16:15

elpenguino: ..Follow the money eh.

Whaat! So Hydrogen cars are NOT the future.. and my money's all gone?

Curse you.. Jack Nicholson!

Sidestep

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#2856998 27-Jan-2022 08:44

Sorry, went O/T there, but 'follow the money' immediately reminded me of this ^^ - and was a line quoted in the Senate Hearings.

Following the money/power in this case lead to a Federal Penitentiary.
It's a cautionary tale on the dangers of over-hyping marginal energy solutions - and ignoring science.

Dr. Schaflander's Solar Electric Power Corp. of California had a foolproof plan.
Proprietary Gallium-Arsenide-semiconductor solar cells in their Yuma AZ. solar power plant would power electrolysers, creating hydrogen from water.

Burned directly, it powered the car Nicholson drove - and another six Chev. Caprices they'd converted to H2.
The real money-maker though, was to be 'Hy-fuel' - a liquid gasoline replacement they'd produce from hydrogen, both more stable and less polluting.

Jack Nicholson, Robert Redford and Marlon Brando were early investors, the publicity they generated pulled 'big-name' money in - afraid they'd miss out on 'the next big thing'.
After all, using 'free' energy from the sun to turn water into fuel would make the oil industry (OPEC was public enemy #1 during the 70's fuel crisis) obsolete overnight.

Hy-fuel contracts were signed with big fuel users such as the US Postal Service.
Idaho's giant Simplot Ag. organisation was in early, ordering 32 million gallons...

Unfortunately the first delivery of 250 gallons of Hy-fuel showed it to be, basically, ammonia, which - previous US military testing had shown, when directly burned in an ICE - suffers from its' low energy density.
Simplot refused to accept it, refused to pay S.E.P.C for the contracted fuel or conversion costs of setting up each engine to use it.

Word quickly got out that the (generally ignored) scientists who'd sharpened their pencils and declared the process economically unviable had been right.
As well as needing to burn 2.5 times as much to produce the same ‘energy’ as gasoline, the whole Solar to H2 to Hy-fuel in ICE conversion was 'uphill' and energy inefficient.

Investors began to try and get back their money and the Securities and Exchange commission became involved..

The FBI soon confiscated all the files and paperwork, arrested Schaflander and his CFO Steven Wright.
A federal grand jury sentenced them to 4 years each in federal prison for mail fraud in connection with fraudulent stock promotion.

The whole thing tainted genuine solar-electrolysis-synfuel research for years, and showed just because a process is possible doesn't mean it's necessarily economical.
Even worse were Schaflander's shrill accusations of a conspiracy between 'government' and 'big oil' to buy or kill game-changing alternative energy sources.

It's become an enduring narrative that perpetual-motion crackpots like Stanley Meyer use as a platform to accuse shadowy forces of being behind their failure, rather than their violating the laws of physics.

It's also a story being repeated recently with the over-hyped valuations of so many 'new energy' companies. It'll all end in tears.

Technofreak

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#2894812 31-Mar-2022 14:47

Team New Zealand's new chase boat is hydrogen powered.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/128226111/americas-cup-team-nz-launch-revolutionary-chase-boat

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shk292

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#2894825 31-Mar-2022 15:31

Technofreak:

Team New Zealand's new chase boat is hydrogen powered.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/americas-cup/128226111/americas-cup-team-nz-launch-revolutionary-chase-boat

You mean Emirates Team Barcelona?

Technofreak

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#2944375 20-Jul-2022 16:54

An interesting article on the future of electric aviation.

Even the lead item for the article is talking about electric engines power from a turbine. Not sure why you'd bother.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62120130

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mkissin

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#2944410 20-Jul-2022 18:22

Technofreak:
An interesting article on the future of electric aviation.

Even the lead item for the article is talking about electric engines power from a turbine. Not sure why you'd bother.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62120130

Same reason you might design a series hybrid car. Efficiency.

empacher48

368 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2944412 20-Jul-2022 18:35

Technofreak:
An interesting article on the future of electric aviation.

Even the lead item for the article is talking about electric engines power from a turbine. Not sure why you'd bother.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62120130

For example:

The A320 APU without modification can produce 90kVA of power while burning 126kg/hr of Jet A as well as providing bleed air for pressurisation up to FL220. Admittedly the power provided is AC.

If you can use that power to run two electric engines it would be better than running two turbofans/props.

It is a simple step forwards to reduce emissions until all the other issues are solved with other options, especially if you’re using SAF.

It’s not an end product, but a step in the right direction that could be implemented in the next 5 years, rather than 10 to 20 years for almost everything else in the drawing board.

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