What will power our vehicles in the future?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › What will power our vehicles in the future?

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#2749040 24-Jul-2021 09:44

scuwp:

We are already seeing fields of abandoned EV's in some countries and stockpiles of batteries that are an environmental disaster waiting to happen if we don't figure out a sustainable environmental plan from start to finish.

Oh dear. Surely not a reference to the fields full of abandoned Leafs outside Paris?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/electric-cars-abandoned-france/

tdgeek

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#2749041 24-Jul-2021 09:44

Sidestep:

tdgeek:

Id like to know how much energy is used to search for oil, build rigs, build refineries, refine and transport it 12,000 miles, per litre.

Thanks. 80% loss

Ive read that Hydrogen takes as much energy to make it, as you create, so 100% loss. But if that source energy is infinite water down a spillway into turbines, then that efficiency doesn't matter? Maybe an analogy is owning a car that does 3mpg. But you get the fuel for free, so physical efficiency is poor but economic efficiency is high?

frankv

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#2749052 24-Jul-2021 10:16

tdgeek:

Thanks. 80% loss

Ive read that Hydrogen takes as much energy to make it, as you create, so 100% loss. But if that source energy is infinite water down a spillway into turbines, then that efficiency doesn't matter? Maybe an analogy is owning a car that does 3mpg. But you get the fuel for free, so physical efficiency is poor but economic efficiency is high?

If you use as much to make it as goes into the fuel, it's 50% loss, not 100%. But electrolysis is only about 25% efficient. So making hydrogen that way is at least as inefficient as oil, since you still have to transport the hydrogen to the point of use, which will be more expensive than transporting petrol/diesel.

Secondly, it's not infinite water. And energy (and money) goes into building dams.

Thirdly, if you burn hydrogen (or petrol/diesel) in an ICEV, you lose another 50-70% as heat.

Rikkitic

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#2749059 24-Jul-2021 10:43

If petrol and the cars using it did not yet exist, and there was no infrastructure for it, but the technology was well understood, would the arguments against using oil-based fuels be as strong (or stronger) as those against hydrogen and other alternatives? We have had more than a century of dedicated research and development into making petrol engines better. Apply that to other fuels and see what happens.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2749068 24-Jul-2021 10:55

frankv:

If you use as much to make it as goes into the fuel, it's 50% loss, not 100%. But electrolysis is only about 25% efficient. So making hydrogen that way is at least as inefficient as oil, since you still have to transport the hydrogen to the point of use, which will be more expensive than transporting petrol/diesel.

Secondly, it's not infinite water. And energy (and money) goes into building dams.

Thirdly, if you burn hydrogen (or petrol/diesel) in an ICEV, you lose another 50-70% as heat.

If you se 100kW to make 100kW, to me thats 100% loss

Yes, but if we only use it for trains (as cars are too much hassle, planes its not viable) you will only be transporting in NZ for NZ, and only to train hubs

We don't top up water, nature does, it circulates

Yes, we do need to build dams, but in our specific case, Tiwai is there (need to build the electrolysis plant) but the hydro is already in place. Thats a one off specific NZ win

Obraik

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#2749152 24-Jul-2021 12:11

Technofreak:
I've long held the view that when nuclear fusion is perfected then we have access to abundant cheap power and hydrogen will be cheap to produce. At this time I believe hydrogen will become the energy of choice. Wether or not we have nuclear energy in New Zealand will be irrelevant. We will follow what the rest of the world does.

Exactly. Which is why it won't be hydrogen for transport. At least land based transport.

The rest of the world seems to have no plans to embrace hydrogen for transport. We have two car companies that have what are basically prototype hydrogen vehicles while other companies (VW, Honda, Scania, etc) have stopped working on fuel cell vehicles. We also have less than 1000 filling stations across the world. Meanwhile, BEV uptake is accelerating - more and more companies are giving deadlines for when their vehicles will be all electric. Once people get a BEV I don't see them wanting to switch back to the centralised fuel source model - why would they when it's so much more convenient to do it at home?

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raytaylor

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#2749192 24-Jul-2021 14:41

rogercruse:

According to my understanding of green agenda, in the future, only travel by donkey will be allowed.... no need for motorways or petrol stations, just make sure you're carrying your donkey when stopped my the energy police!!!!

😃

There will be a fart tax on your donkey

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Handle9

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#2749193 24-Jul-2021 14:44

Obraik:
Technofreak:
I've long held the view that when nuclear fusion is perfected then we have access to abundant cheap power and hydrogen will be cheap to produce. At this time I believe hydrogen will become the energy of choice. Wether or not we have nuclear energy in New Zealand will be irrelevant. We will follow what the rest of the world does.

Exactly. Which is why it won't be hydrogen for transport. At least land based transport.

The rest of the world seems to have no plans to embrace hydrogen for transport. We have two car companies that have what are basically prototype hydrogen vehicles while other companies (VW, Honda, Scania, etc) have stopped working on fuel cell vehicles. We also have less than 1000 filling stations across the world. Meanwhile, BEV uptake is accelerating - more and more companies are giving deadlines for when their vehicles will be all electric. Once people get a BEV I don't see them wanting to switch back to the centralised fuel source model - why would they when it's so much more convenient to do it at home?

You are confusing personal cars with transport. Hydrogen is going to be a hugely important fuel for industrial and commercial applications. If a commercial site has very peaky load profiles and significant onsite decarbonised generation hydrogen is an excellent fuel.

There's going to be a mix of energy sources, just as there is today. It's certainly not going to be one size fits all.

raytaylor

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#2749212 24-Jul-2021 15:08

RobDickinson:

1000kms a week?

How many on an individual day?

A $60k model 3 would do 350km a day and charge overnight and save you about $120 a week on fuel?

Me and my staff are similar - we do about 35k a year in each of our vehicles.

A typical day for the installers vans could me napier > maraekakaho > porangahau > pourerere > back to napier which is about 280kms. There are also hills in those roads too which i dont think the range specs take into account.

Businesses getting car chargers installed at staff homes with checkmeters is going to be interesting for accountants.

My mate has a nissan leaf and reckons driving from Tauraunga up to the top of the Kaimais will use at least half his battery capacity on the first 25kms of his 105km journey, while regenerative braking on the way back down the hill is how he makes it to hamilton.

Problem is I am not feeling assured that the 400km range quoted by some is on NZ roads with hills.

A typical day for me would be the same in my hilux, except i drive up hills offroad to visit a few transmitter sites.

I also drive to wellington regularly - a 400km range sounds great. Napier to wellington is only 325kms.
However the problem would be (assuming its flat) reaching fetherston with a 35% battery charge and then having to get over the Rimutaka hill. Based on what electric car owners have told me, i'd need to go into negative charge levels going up to the summit and then regenerative braking on the way down to recover.
Anyone living in wellington with an EV able to provide some insight?

I imagine there are other journeys in NZ where a 400km range would be ideal, but you have a big hill at one end and the 100% charge limit means you may not be able to recover all your energy.

Summary: Sell me a hilux that can handle 400 actual kms on NZ roads, or can do my 260km daily round trip, or napier to auckland / napier to wellington and half way back, and I'll buy it.

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Obraik

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#2749215 24-Jul-2021 15:24

Handle9:

You are confusing personal cars with transport. Hydrogen is going to be a hugely important fuel for industrial and commercial applications. If a commercial site has very peaky load profiles and significant onsite decarbonised generation hydrogen is an excellent fuel.

There's going to be a mix of energy sources, just as there is today. It's certainly not going to be one size fits all.

Not really. I don't see commercial transport in New Zealand switching to Hydrogen either.

Ideally, New Zealand needs to move away from relying on longhaul trucks for getting goods from one city to another. That should be done via rail. Not only would that cut emissions if we fully electrify the main lines but it will reduce wear and tear on the roads.

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ezbee

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#2749220 24-Jul-2021 15:46

Obraik:

Handle9:

You are confusing personal cars with transport. Hydrogen is going to be a hugely important fuel for industrial and commercial applications. If a commercial site has very peaky load profiles and significant onsite decarbonised generation hydrogen is an excellent fuel.

There's going to be a mix of energy sources, just as there is today. It's certainly not going to be one size fits all.

Not really. I don't see commercial transport in New Zealand switching to Hydrogen either.

Ideally, New Zealand needs to move away from relying on longhaul trucks for getting goods from one city to another. That should be done via rail. Not only would that cut emissions if we fully electrify the main lines but it will reduce wear and tear on the roads.

Rail.
It would also save on the risks of dodgy handbrake systems, trailer hitches we can't seem to quite get right, and lack inspection resource for.
Then apparently we don't train drivers, or provide conditions that keep NZ drivers, my logbook is more aspirational, so need to import them.
So it would tick some more boxes.

For Hydrogen, maybe something like milk tanker round that goes on a set round and back to dairy factory where is can be refilled.
Apparently we make biodiesel from tallow, but apparently its not especially economic ?

gzt

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#2749225 24-Jul-2021 16:02

Handle9: 2030 is the likely date for short haul to be commercially viable. There’s a lot of work for airports to be prepared for commercial flight, most of them have a long way to go just on scope 1 and scope 2 emissions and don’t have the infeeds for significant electric flight.

As good a date as any. I see VTOL vertical take off and landing enabling a lot of personal travel without the need for much infrastructure. This is necessarily short initially and will displace point to point car travel and create new markets rather than displace existing air infrastructure.

Full autonomy is the big awaited enabler for VTOL. Coincidentally this is easier to achieve in the air than on the ground.

I'll drop in Lilium as the perfect example of VTOL tech even though there are some long winded technical debates about it.There are many other more 'conventional' examples.

gzt

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#2749226 24-Jul-2021 16:03

gzt

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#2749228 24-Jul-2021 16:14

Fuel for VTOL - Electric battery is viable. Electric propulsion gives many autonomous control advantages. Hydrogen tech is coming along Maybe that will be used if it's green enough and technical problems are solved.

Dingbatt

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#2749239 24-Jul-2021 17:05

If you expect to use the Lilium Jet for personal transport you may need to win lotto first.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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