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Batman
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  #1006809 16-Mar-2014 18:18
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The Swiss cheese model should be renamed Malaysian cheese



turnin
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Dratsab
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  #1006821 16-Mar-2014 18:42
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^ROFL - highly credible website...



Sidestep
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  #1006822 16-Mar-2014 18:45
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turnin: Note the conspiracy potential in this one :)
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/malaysia-airlines-plane-mh370-latest-conspiracy-theory-were-freescale-semiconductor-top-employees-1440097




Or the "hijacking due to a remote control takeover of the aircraft based on its software vulnerabilities" one I just saw.. 

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  #1006825 16-Mar-2014 18:55
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if that article is true it cannot get much more Hollywood than this. I was sceptical why dick ripped out his pacemaker some time back ... but I could you take control of a plane by hacking it?! and Russia doing all its stuff to distract the world? (lol my own conspiracy theory now)

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  #1006836 16-Mar-2014 19:20
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joker97: if that article is true it cannot get much more Hollywood than this. I was sceptical why dick ripped out his pacemaker some time back ... but I could you take control of a plane by hacking it?! and Russia doing all its stuff to distract the world? (lol my own conspiracy theory now)


This is a little bit off topic, but industrial equipment in secure environments has been hacked and controlled before.  With the motivation, anything electronic that communicates with the outside world is not safe.  Have a look in to Stuxnet.  There are now various copies and variations doing different things around the world now, but it will show you exactly what is possible when it comes to foreign interests taking control of what isn't theirs.

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  #1006942 16-Mar-2014 21:59
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There's been a lot of comment on this thread that has come from misunderstanding, misinformation or a lack of aviation knowledge. Stuff, like a "flame out" being thought of as a stream of fire from the engine as it runs out of fuel, climbing to 45,000 to avoid detection, engine still running after a water landing, making a safe landing on a dark night without a prepared runway or any runway lights. 

Then there's this. I realise the poster wasn't trying to say they believed this.

Or the "hijacking due to a remote control takeover of the aircraft based on its software vulnerabilities" one I just saw..


Guys (and Girls) before anyone starts posting as if this stupid information has any credibility, there is no way someone could have hacked in to the flight management computer. That system is completely isolated from any other system on the plane and there is no external/remote access to it. The only input is via pilot input in the cockpit.

Also there is no 10 minute rule for for ATC contact.  What I think was being referred to here was there is a 10 minute period from the time they lose VHF contact with Malaysian ATC till they get reliable VHF contact with Vietnamese ATC.  Same reason there is no Flight Radar 24 coverage in this area.






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  #1006945 16-Mar-2014 22:05
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Technofreak:
Also there is no 10 minute rule for for ATC contact.  What I think was being referred to here was there is a 10 minute period from the time they lose VHF contact with Malaysian ATC till they get reliable VHF contact with Vietnamese ATC.  Same reason there is no Flight Radar 24 coverage in this area.




I've not heard of the 10 minute rule either, but the way it was portrayed on CNN was that there has to be a minimum 10 minute distance between ATC if there is a coverage gap. As if it was mandatory.

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  #1006950 16-Mar-2014 22:20
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tdgeek:
Technofreak:
Also there is no 10 minute rule for for ATC contact.  What I think was being referred to here was there is a 10 minute period from the time they lose VHF contact with Malaysian ATC till they get reliable VHF contact with Vietnamese ATC.  Same reason there is no Flight Radar 24 coverage in this area.




I've not heard of the 10 minute rule either, but the way it was portrayed on CNN was that there has to be a minimum 10 minute distance between ATC if there is a coverage gap. As if it was mandatory.


Now you're making it sound like a time gap between aircraft.




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  #1006955 16-Mar-2014 22:35
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Technofreak:
tdgeek:
Technofreak:
Also there is no 10 minute rule for for ATC contact.  What I think was being referred to here was there is a 10 minute period from the time they lose VHF contact with Malaysian ATC till they get reliable VHF contact with Vietnamese ATC.  Same reason there is no Flight Radar 24 coverage in this area.




I've not heard of the 10 minute rule either, but the way it was portrayed on CNN was that there has to be a minimum 10 minute distance between ATC if there is a coverage gap. As if it was mandatory.


Now you're making it sound like a time gap between aircraft.


It didn't sound like seperation they were talking about, perhaps it was. It sounded like if there is a gap between ATC areas, where there is no coverage, it cannot be over 10 minutes, I assumed flying time. Matt saw an article on Sky TV UK that said a similar thing, so I guess its how they delivered what they meant. They were newsreaders rather than aviation staff.

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  #1006961 16-Mar-2014 22:46
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Technofreak: 

Also there is no 10 minute rule for for ATC contact.  What I think was being referred to here was there is a 10 minute period from the time they lose VHF contact with Malaysian ATC till they get reliable VHF contact with Vietnamese ATC.  Same reason there is no Flight Radar 24 coverage in this area.




That is not entirely accurate, as you sound like you are referring to a 10 minute 'dead zone', where the plane isn't able to contact anyone due to being out of range of both. and I don't think that was ever mentioned. The way I understand it, the pilot could have immediately contacted the  Vietnamese ATC , after they  had signed off from the  Malaysian ATC. The thing is that they didn't. Why didn't they? There is a 10 minute 'maximum' amount of time allowed after the pilot signed off from the  Malaysian ATC, until they must contact the  Vietnamese ATC, otherwise an alarm will be raised. The UK Sky program was discussing this with real pilots of this same plane model, so they would know all the rules.

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  #1006962 16-Mar-2014 22:50
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tdgeek: 

It didn't sound like seperation they were talking about, perhaps it was. It sounded like if there is a gap between ATC areas, where there is no coverage, it cannot be over 10 minutes, I assumed flying time. Matt saw an article on Sky TV UK that said a similar thing, so I guess its how they delivered what they meant. They were newsreaders rather than aviation staff.


There's plenty of places around the globe where there's much much more than 10 minutes flight time between VHF coverage, more like 10 hours in some cases. Usually aircraft flying these routes will have HF transceivers as well as VHF, even then there is no need for 10 minute calls.

I suspect in this case as there was probably only a 10 minute blank spot they wouldn't bother with HF even if it was equipped.  HF coverage can be hit and miss anyway with skip distances changing with the time of the day.  Therefore the requirement to use different frequencies for the same contact based on the time you try to call.




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Technofreak
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  #1006964 16-Mar-2014 22:59
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mattwnz: [
That is not entirely accurate, as you sound like you are referring to a 10 minute 'dead zone', where the plane isn't able to contact anyone due to being out of range of both. and I don't think that was ever mentioned. The way I understand it, the pilot could have immediately contacted the  Vietnamese ATC , after they  had signed off from the  Malaysian ATC. The thing is that they didn't. Why didn't they? There is a 10 minute 'maximum' amount of time allowed after the pilot signed off from the  Malaysian ATC, until they must contact the  Vietnamese ATC, otherwise an alarm will be raised. The UK Sky program was discussing this with real pilots of this same plane model, so they would know all the rules.


Ok, you saw the item, I didn't, however this 10 minute thing seems to be very odd. The model of aircraft wouldn't make any difference. If they were able to make immediate contact I would expect there to be some alarm raising going on well before 10 minutes was up. 10 minutes is a long time when ATC are trying to ensure aircraft separation.  I would imagine this is a fairly busy airspace.

Hence my comments re a dead area for reception which also ties in the the ADS-B signal for the Flight radar 24 info which is also VHF and disappears in this area.




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turnin
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  #1006965 16-Mar-2014 23:07
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Technofreak: 
Also there is no 10 minute rule for for ATC contact.  What I think was being referred to here was there is a 10 minute period from the time they lose VHF contact with Malaysian ATC till they get reliable VHF contact with Vietnamese ATC.  Same reason there is no Flight Radar 24 coverage in this area.


are you referring to the coverage closer to Vietnam?  
flightradar24 said their coverage was good where the plane disappeared
how do auto-lands work, are instructions passed between the airport and the plane or is the plane autonomous ?


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  #1006967 16-Mar-2014 23:14
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It's the 10 minute window (between ATC contacts), the pilot relied on to make a course (and altitude) change that would make him invisible when he appeared on radar again. (ie: the aircraft position, altitude and heading would not have been where anybody was looking once they started to look. Therefore the plane could continue flying off course without suspicion, even though it may have been being radar tracked, whilst the initial search got underway)

(Instrument landings require airfield systems to set up the required approach angle and touchdown points)

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