NZ 2023 Election Thread

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#3137105 30-Sep-2023 18:38

freitasm:
tdgeek:

[
Luxon did state in the leaders debate that he will resign if the abortion laws change, so thats extreme.

By which point, if he does resign, the laws already changed. Very easy for him to say that.

Even this argument makes no sense. There’s no pathway for him to get a majority of his caucus to pass this, let alone a majority in parliament.

It’s culture wars crap which has no place in NZ politics. All parties have a position that abortion is a health issue.

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#3137106 30-Sep-2023 18:39

Technofreak:

When you see who commissioned the survey you realise the outcome was very probably predetermined. They're hardly likely to publish a survey that didn't have those results.

Are non regressive tax tables an option?? Simple.

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#3137107 30-Sep-2023 18:42

Handle9:

Even this argument makes no sense. There’s no pathway for him to get a majority of his caucus to pass this, let alone a majority in parliament.

It’s culture wars crap which has no place in NZ politics. All parties have a position that abortion is a health issue.

We have abortion laws. So does US states, which differ. Luxon called abortion, murder. And he will resign if NZ laws change. Abortion is not murder, its a health issue. But he would resign. Why would he resign?

The issue is his admission of resigning is decidedly a US alt-right stance. Normal people who may disagree, can find common ground on this topic, bit if its THAT line in the sand, then what for other topics?

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#3137125 30-Sep-2023 18:49

geekIT:

The more restraint that can be brought to bear on Luxon, the better. The guy is an evangelistic Christian in a country where the main religion is officially documented as 'No Religion', and who has publicly stated that 'abortion' is murder.

If he becomes Prime Minister it's unlikely that his unfettered decisions will reflect what's best for the majority of New Zealanders.

It might be a surprise to you that the government and laws of New Zealand and for that matter many western democracies, are based on Christian ethics.

You seem to have a poor grasp on how our democracy works. One person, in this case the Prime Minister, cannot change the laws. Any law change requires a majority vote of the members of the House of Representatives.

I have no problem with his religious beliefs, be they Evangelical Christian, main stream Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist or as you say "Non Religion". He has only one vote.

I also fail to understand why some people are so triggered by someone holding an anti abortion stance that they have to be so opposed to that person being involved in public office.

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#3137128 30-Sep-2023 18:52

Newshub post, related to my above post

Hipkins hit the campaign trail in a stormy, grey Auckland on Saturday, attending various cultural events around the city in an effort to demonstrate Labour was “the party for the diverse community that New Zealand has”. He also released a Rainbow policy at Karangahape Rd bar Carmen Jones.

Labour was promising to, if elected, make sure adoption and surrogacy laws treated Rainbow people – gay, lesbian, transgender, and other sexualities and genders – the same as heterosexuals. The party has also promised to review the evidence of blood donation for sex workers and men who have sex with men, and to provide support to teachers to help them understand sexual orientation and gender diversity.

"Whether you're a man or a woman, whether you are gay, or straight, or lesbian, or bisexual, or transgender. Whether you're Māori, Pasifika, Asian, whatever, your identity or whoever you are, I believe that the Labour Party is the party that respects all New Zealanders for who they are,” Hipkins said.

My comment. "We are all equal but some are more equal than others"

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#3137134 30-Sep-2023 18:56

Technofreak:

I also fail to understand why some people are so triggered by someone holding an anti abortion stance that they have to be so opposed to that person being involved in public office.

He will be our next Prime Minister on Oct 15. If the abortion laws change, he will resign. The laws can change when he is in power. But if he will resign, that says it all. If he knows in our country that the laws will not change, then he is playing with words, US style. Taking a stand with a knowingly zero result. Shallow.

Why say it?

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#3137141 30-Sep-2023 19:24

tdgeek:

Technofreak:

I also fail to understand why some people are so triggered by someone holding an anti abortion stance that they have to be so opposed to that person being involved in public office.

He will be our next Prime Minister on Oct 15. If the abortion laws change, he will resign. The laws can change when he is in power. But if he will resign, that says it all. If he knows in our country that the laws will not change, then he is playing with words, US style. Taking a stand with a knowingly zero result. Shallow.

Why say it?

I'm not quite sure what the relevance of your post is. I wasn't commenting on anything Christopher Luxon said about resigning. Yes, it's a non statement as we know any change that reflects his views is unlikely as a snowball in hell.

My comment was about those that see the need to be triggered about his views on abortion. Views to a similar or lesser extent are probably held by a lot of people.

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#3137142 30-Sep-2023 19:31

Technofreak:

[I also fail to understand why some people are so triggered by someone holding an anti abortion stance that they have to be so opposed to that person being involved in public office.

If it was the policy of his party then that would be disqualifying in my opinon, just as any number of religious views would be. Religion has been a private matter for New Zealand and New Zealand politicians for many years, and it should stay there. It's not a matter for public life.

The government of New Zealand is secular and built on western traditions, not religous traditions. There are aspects of that which have religous heritage but there is no place for religion in the mechanics or rules of government.

The state is entirely secular, which is in keeping with the majority of New Zealanders.

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#3137143 30-Sep-2023 19:32

tdgeek:

Technofreak:

I also fail to understand why some people are so triggered by someone holding an anti abortion stance that they have to be so opposed to that person being involved in public office.

He will be our next Prime Minister on Oct 15. If the abortion laws change, he will resign. The laws can change when he is in power. But if he will resign, that says it all. If he knows in our country that the laws will not change, then he is playing with words, US style. Taking a stand with a knowingly zero result. Shallow.

Why say it?

What on earth are you talking about? He's answering a question.

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#3137163 30-Sep-2023 21:12

Handle9:

If it was the policy of his party then that would be disqualifying in my opinon, just as any number of religious views would be. Religion has been a private matter for New Zealand and New Zealand politicians for many years, and it should stay there. It's not a matter for public life.

The government of New Zealand is secular and built on western traditions, not religous traditions. There are aspects of that which have religous heritage but there is no place for religion in the mechanics or rules of government.

The state is entirely secular, which is in keeping with the majority of New Zealanders.

Yep, pretty well agree with that. Note I said ethics not traditions. Ethics might not have been the best word to use but was the best I could think of at the time. However a lot of western traditions have Christian origins. For example the Bible is used for swearing in ceremonies. Two of our biggest holidays are based around events that have integral ties to Christianity.

That said I think having a secular state is a good thing.

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#3137343 1-Oct-2023 12:13

I'm just interested to know if @GV27 is going to provide citations to their two posts.

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=184&topicid=306395&page_no=48#3135980

References showing NZ raised OCRs earlier than Australia:

https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/115363/why-has-chasm-opened-between-reserve-bank-new-zealands-ocr-and-reserve-bank

And our Debt to GDP: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NZL/new-zealand/debt-to-gdp-ratio

Excess mortality NZ vs AU vs US vs UK: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-p-scores-projected-baseline?country=NZL~AUS~USA~GBR (Showing that NZ had in excess of 10k less deaths during that period in comparison to US/UK)

And our health-care spend: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NZL/new-zealand/healthcare-spending

As a consequence of not taxing wealthier folks in NZ, our tax take is down so we as a country spend less on our healthcare and infrastructure in comparison to many of the countries we compare ourselves to.

As well as how pointing out facts that cutting the rate of increases to sickness beneficiaries at a rate of $20 per week will be a net positive for said folks on a benefit?

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=184&topicid=306395&page_no=51#3137089

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#3137347 1-Oct-2023 12:30

BarTender:

I'm just interested to know if @GV27 is going to provide citations to their two posts.

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=184&topicid=306395&page_no=48#3135980

References showing NZ raised OCRs earlier than Australia:

https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/115363/why-has-chasm-opened-between-reserve-bank-new-zealands-ocr-and-reserve-bank

And our Debt to GDP: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NZL/new-zealand/debt-to-gdp-ratio

Excess mortality NZ vs AU vs US vs UK: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-p-scores-projected-baseline?country=NZL~AUS~USA~GBR (Showing that NZ had in excess of 10k less deaths during that period in comparison to US/UK)

And our health-care spend: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NZL/new-zealand/healthcare-spending

As a consequence of not taxing wealthier folks in NZ, our tax take is down so we as a country spend less on our healthcare and infrastructure in comparison to many of the countries we compare ourselves to.

As well as how pointing out facts that cutting the rate of increases to sickness beneficiaries at a rate of $20 per week will be a net positive for said folks on a benefit?

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=184&topicid=306395&page_no=51#3137089

Didn't realise I had to provide citations given you don't seem to be expecting anyone else to do it, but if you can point to anything I said that makes Australia's OCR timing relevant, go right ahead.

By the way, Public Debt to GDP is different to Private Household Debt. And a great way to get your government debt down is not building a bunch of the infrastructure you campaigned on and not indexing your revenue take relative to the inflation you mandate which households have to cover the cost of, at the same time as you deliver fewer and fewer services. So at this point, your argument is that flagship policy failure is actually shrewd economic management. And that's before we get into the long-term implications of the debt associated with house prices shooting up 30% in one year, followed by massive interest rate rises. Can't have that one both ways.

What you have is a list of things that look pretty good if you're determined to ignore what they actually mean and the implications of them. But that's entirely in keeping with how this government has managed the country - only talk about the things you think have improved, don't actually go too deep on the detail and just stop measuring anything that might make you look bad.

At some point, people figure out that's not a great way to run a country.

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#3137353 1-Oct-2023 12:39

GV27:

Didn't realise I had to provide citations given you don't seem to be expecting anyone else to do it, but if you can point to anything I said that makes Australia's OCR timing relevant, go right ahead.

@GV27 if you make a claim, you have to provide evidence. It's not up to others to search for proof supporting your claims.

You may notice that @Bartender posts links to evidence. That's the way.

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#3137356 1-Oct-2023 13:23

BarTender:

I'm just interested to know if @GV27 is going to provide citations to their two posts.

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=184&topicid=306395&page_no=48#3135980

References showing NZ raised OCRs earlier than Australia:

https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/115363/why-has-chasm-opened-between-reserve-bank-new-zealands-ocr-and-reserve-bank

And our Debt to GDP: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NZL/new-zealand/debt-to-gdp-ratio

Excess mortality NZ vs AU vs US vs UK: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-p-scores-projected-baseline?country=NZL~AUS~USA~GBR (Showing that NZ had in excess of 10k less deaths during that period in comparison to US/UK)

And our health-care spend: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NZL/new-zealand/healthcare-spending

As a consequence of not taxing wealthier folks in NZ, our tax take is down so we as a country spend less on our healthcare and infrastructure in comparison to many of the countries we compare ourselves to.

As well as how pointing out facts that cutting the rate of increases to sickness beneficiaries at a rate of $20 per week will be a net positive for said folks on a benefit?

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=184&topicid=306395&page_no=51#3137089

A couple of quick observations.

I'm presuming you referring to the 10 k less deaths during Covid. Some experts (Professor Gorman is one) will argue the predicted death numbers from Covid were way over estimated. On that basis a 10k reduction on a "inflated" figure doesn't mean much. Also some experts will tell you that we are yet to see the deaths from other causes that have been exacerbated by the effects of lockdowns, thus having a nullifying effect on any actual reductions achieved during lockdown.

WRT to health spending, unfortunately spend in any area isn't necessarily a good indicator of increased or better outcomes.

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#3137357 1-Oct-2023 13:24

freitasm:

@GV27 if you make a claim, you have to provide evidence. It's not up to others to search for proof supporting your claims.

You may notice that @Bartender posts links to evidence. That's the way.

He hasn't actually told me what he wants me to substantiate. He's just posted a link to something about when we raised our OCR's relative to Australia.

The timing of Australia's OCR increases are, on the face of it, not relevant to what I have said (in as so far as they have nothing to do with NZ inflation, NZ house prices and the comments made by RBNZ) so I am unsure what exactly his point is.

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