4K Passthrough on A/V Receiver

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Paul1977

5058 posts

Uber Geek

#205270 6-Nov-2016 17:07

Hi,

I have a Yamaha HTR-3065 receiver which is a few years old now, but the documentation says it has 4K passthrough.

I am looking at upgrading to a new Sony X9300D 4K HDR TV, along with a PS4 Pro and Xbox One S (for UHD Blu-Ray).

I am concerned I will run into issues passing the video through the receiver, as I've read about many older 4K devices not being fully compatible with UHD Blu-Ray.

Is my Yamaha going to be able to pass the 4K HDR signal through? And if not, how can I hook this up to still have the Yamaha do all the audio decoding (DTS-HD MA etc)?

Thanks in advanced.

Paul

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Masterpiece

247 posts

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#1664702 6-Nov-2016 22:00

The bigger problem is will it pass HDCP2.2 and other EDID info.
Rec2020+HDR has a broad spec range, unfortunately many devices loosely use 4K as meaning something. Typically it is hard to pin down the actual performance limit because they never list the specs in detail especially when they know it would not pass full range Rec2020+HDR at 18GBPS.

If you want the AVR in the path, be prepared to run lower than full specs for Rec2020 + HDR
ie: 2160p24 at 8bit 4:2:0, you might get up to 2160p24 at 10/12bit 4:2:2...maybe

Be prepared to run HDMI splitters for audio or use alternative audio feeds.

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Dunnersfella

4086 posts

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#1664703 6-Nov-2016 22:02

Hi - you can't.

1: The amp can handle the bandwidth that was being used when UHD resolution first arose. However, at that point there were no ratified standards (or HDMI chipsets) for expanded colour gamut. You're missing HDCP 2.2, something that is essential to achieve an HDR picture. Basically, as there was no standard when your amp was released, there was no way for Yamaha to make their amp future proof for this.

And before you ask, firmware updates don't fix this, it's a silicon issue, not firmware.

2: As the XBox One S only has 1 x HDMI output, there's no way for you to run an HDMI cable out of the amp, directly into the receiver AND the TV. A splitter will simply be splitting the same, non-expanded colour output...

3: Even if the amp was HDCP 2.2 HDR compliant - you still wouldn't get Dolby True HD or DTS Master HD, as the XBox One S cannot bitstream audio via HDMI, so it won't allow you to get those 'magic words' on your receiver. Sending a 5.1 or 7.1 PCM signal will sound as good (maybe without DTS or Dolby's hotter mix) though.

Bitsteaming from the XBox One S will be possible in the future, however there's no hard date for this.

richms

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#1664706 6-Nov-2016 22:04

I have a couple of friends with 2-3 year or so old receivers that are now finding them useless for the 4k they thought they were futureproofing themselves for. One just gets masses of sparkles on 2160p even at 24Hz, its worse on 30 and they cant put 60 thru it. The other has it getting some stuff but it all looks really banded and crap when going thru the reciever. Source says its 4k, tv says 4k. Doesnt look it.

Richard rich.ms

Paul1977

5058 posts

Uber Geek

#1664795 7-Nov-2016 09:28

Thanks for the replies.

After I posted a did a little more research, and while I couldn't find anything specifically about my Yamaha, the age of it made me think it pretty much wouldn't work. Which you have now confirmed for me.

Not hugely expensive for the new HDCP2.2 HDR version of the same amp the (RX-V381), but the TV was already going to be pushing the budget so I simply don't have the money for it at the moment. For the same reasoning I'm reluctant to buy HDMI splitters.

However, @dunnersfella in theory why couldn't I use HDMI splitters and then send the signal straight to the TV for the HDR video and also to Yamaha just for the audio? Since the Xbox One S is decoding the audio itself and then sending PCM over HDMI, is HDCP2.2 present on the PCM audio the Xbox is outputting (or just the video)? I.e. would the lack of HDCP2.2 on the amp stop the audio from UHD Blu-Ray from an Xbox One S?

So without replacing the Yamaha, HDMI has to go straight to TV and I have to find another means of getting audio to the Yamaha. Yamaha has one digital optical in, and one digital coax in; while Xbox and PS4 only have optical outs - but I think I have an old optical to coax converter lying around. So would either of the following work?

1. Xbox One S HDMI to TV, optical out to converter, coax to receiver.

PS4 Pro HDMI to TV, optical out to Yamaha.

TV HDMI ARC for Freeview Audio.

2. Connecting Xbox One S and PS4 Pro HDMI to TV, ARC or optical from TV to Yamaha.

I know neither of these solutions will give anything better than standard DD and DTS 5.1, but medium term I can probably live with that.

Option 1 I think should work, but my concern is the audio quality from the Xbox. Is this correct - Xbox decodes bitstream and then re-encodes to output over optical, which the Yamaha then decodes again?

Option 2 is tidier (cabling wise), but I'm not sure what format ARC or the TVs optical will pass to the Yamaha from external sources. And even if it does pass 5.1 from external devices, does this add yet another decode re-encode cycle compared to option 1?

Man... just typing this up has given me a headache!

DeepBlueSky

547 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1664977 7-Nov-2016 13:15

Hi Paul,

I'm using ARC running all the inputs into the TV's HUB (Samsung UA55KS8000S) and out to the Amp, the PlayStation sound seems fine. You can decide to decode in the receiver or through the TV by deciding what audio format is used (Bitstream or PCM), when sending sound to the AMP. Here is an article that talks about this http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/5-1-surround-audio-passthrough

Hope this helps :)

LennonNZ

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#1664982 7-Nov-2016 13:21

Yes 4K is not 4K is not 4K. I had some issues (HDMI 2.1 TV with HDMI 2.2 source and HDMI 2.2 AMP).

I bought a magic box ( https://www.hdfury.com/shop/splitters/integral-4k60-444-600mhz/) and all my issues went away.

Paul1977

5058 posts

Uber Geek

#1664995 7-Nov-2016 13:50

DeepBlueSky:

Hi Paul,

I'm using ARC running all the inputs into the TV's HUB (Samsung UA55KS8000S) and out to the Amp, the PlayStation sound seems fine. You can decide to decode in the receiver or through the TV by deciding what audio format is used (Bitstream or PCM), when sending sound to the AMP. Here is an article that talks about this http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/5-1-surround-audio-passthrough

Hope this helps :)

That is helpful thanks. The TV I'm looking at isn't on the list they've tested, but the X850D is the US version of the next model down, and that supports it. So looking good for passing it all through the TV as an interim solution.

I can just make it a condition of the sale that this has to work I guess.

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Paul1977

5058 posts

Uber Geek

#1665005 7-Nov-2016 14:02

LennonNZ:

Yes 4K is not 4K is not 4K. I had some issues (HDMI 2.1 TV with HDMI 2.2 source and HDMI 2.2 AMP).

I bought a magic box ( https://www.hdfury.com/shop/splitters/integral-4k60-444-600mhz/) and all my issues went away.

Do you mean HDCP 2.2?

Looks like a nice little device, but the price tag is a bit high for me and I'm not sure it would help with HDR. For my particular situation (HDCP 2.2 source, HDCP 2.2 TV, old amp) sounds like routing it all through the TV first then using ARC or optical back to the amp might be the way to go until I can get a better receiver.

Good to know there are options out there though, thanks.

DeepBlueSky

547 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1665015 7-Nov-2016 14:07

Hi Paul,

Found this review on their site of I guess the US version of your TV http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x930d plus a calibration page this is useful http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x930d/settings

Paul1977

5058 posts

Uber Geek

#1665024 7-Nov-2016 14:18

DeepBlueSky:

Hi Paul,

Found this review on their site of I guess the US version of your TV http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x930d plus a calibration page this is useful http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x930d/settings

Thanks, good reading. Input lag is the only major drawback I guess, which they say has improved after a firmware update. So the question will be whether they have updating the firmware for the international models as well. I'll go hunting for that now!

Edit: That review (before they amended info about the firmware update that improved input lag somewaht) was dated 1 April 2016, and the latest firmware for the NZ model is dated 27 July 2016. I'm more of a casual gamer than a serious one, so might not even notice.

LennonNZ

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#1665054 7-Nov-2016 14:47

Paul1977:

LennonNZ:

Yes 4K is not 4K is not 4K. I had some issues (HDMI 2.1 TV with HDMI 2.2 source and HDMI 2.2 AMP).

I bought a magic box ( https://www.hdfury.com/shop/splitters/integral-4k60-444-600mhz/) and all my issues went away.

Do you mean HDCP 2.2?

Looks like a nice little device, but the price tag is a bit high for me and I'm not sure it would help with HDR. For my particular situation (HDCP 2.2 source, HDCP 2.2 TV, old amp) sounds like routing it all through the TV first then using ARC or optical back to the amp might be the way to go until I can get a better receiver.

Good to know there are options out there though, thanks.

Yes HDCP 2.1 TV (Sony) , with HDCP 2.2 source (Roku) and HDCP 2.2 AMP Onkyo).

It downscales it to HDCP 1.x . Or it can be used as a splitter so you would take it straight from 2.2 Source -> TV as 2.2 and then take the audio into the AMP as HDMI/HDCP 1.x or SPDIF.