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BDFL - Memuneh
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#537797 26-Oct-2011 15:56

They are not blocking freedom of movement. People can't just go scattering around, blocking other people's rights. So things need to be managed. You call it a "police state" because the line is formed by policeman.

I'd call a police state if everyone in that manifestation disappeared without explanation, were tucked inside a plane and then dropped into the ocean 100km out in the sea - like some right wing dictatorship used to do in South America in the 70s.

That's way different.

codyc1515

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#537798 26-Oct-2011 15:57

freitasm: They are not blocking freedom of movement. People can't just go scattering around, blocking other people's rights. So things need to be managed. You call it a "police state" because the line is formed by policeman.

I'd call a police state if everyone in that manifestation disappeared without explanation, were tucked inside a plane and then dropped into the ocean 100km out in the sea - like some right wing dictatorship used to do in South America in the 70s.

That's way different.

Are they letting anybody past? Don't think so, aka. violation.
Quoting source: "Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand."

They are breaking the law (prove me otherwise)!

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
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#537799 26-Oct-2011 15:59

Are you a lawyer?

codyc1515

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#537805 26-Oct-2011 16:13

freitasm: Are you a lawyer?

Are you incapable of reading?

I quoted "New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 No 109" part 2 section 18 sub-section 1:
"Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand."

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
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#537806 26-Oct-2011 16:15

Quoting the law doesn't mean you understand its principles and underlying methods.

codyc1515

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#537814 26-Oct-2011 16:22

freitasm: Quoting the law doesn't mean you understand its principles and underlying methods.

I have got in touch with my lawyers, they will get back to me tomorrow. Then we will have a second opinion.

John2010

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#537823 26-Oct-2011 16:36

@codyc1515 - It seems to me that you are claiming more rights for protesters than non protesters are entitled to. In my experience this is typical behaviour of protesters, all rights belong to them and if those rights impinge upon the freedom of those not protesting well that is just too bad.

For example -

codyc1515:Does this look like a free country? I would call this a police state. Picture #1: Police warrantlessly videoing people "in case" a crime is committed, statements are made that the video is not being stored in a database.

In a free country people can video others in a public place. It seems that you are saying that protestors (as they do) and the general public can do so but the police can not?

Or are you saying that no one can video others in a public place?

codyc1515:I quoted "New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 No 109" part 2 section 18 sub-section 1:
"Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand."

But that right of free movement does not extend to restricting the rights of others to their freedom of movement.

Are you claiming, as I know many protesters do, that their claimed moral high ground gives them the right to restrict the free movement of others?

If you are so claiming why can't others (including the police) claim their own moral high ground and impede the movements of protestors?

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freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
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#537825 26-Oct-2011 16:37

Agreed. It all comes down to "your rights end where my rights begin"...

ScottStevensNZ

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#537833 26-Oct-2011 16:47

codyc1515:
freitasm: They are not blocking freedom of movement. People can't just go scattering around, blocking other people's rights. So things need to be managed. You call it a "police state" because the line is formed by policeman.

I'd call a police state if everyone in that manifestation disappeared without explanation, were tucked inside a plane and then dropped into the ocean 100km out in the sea - like some right wing dictatorship used to do in South America in the 70s.

That's way different.

Are they letting anybody past? Don't think so, aka. violation.
Quoting source: "Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand."

They are breaking the law (prove me otherwise)!

Dude - Really? I've been to Stasi HQ in Berlin and I can assure you that the organs of a police state look considerbly different to what you've shown - I've also seen an original of the Nacht und Nebel decree - and I can assure you that is the very embodiment of what a police state is. The fact that you are here, complaining in public makes your claim that this is a Police State at best pitiable and at worst completely foolish. The fact that you are seeking legal advice - and the fact that the lawyer is in your employ and is bound to represent you to the best of his or her ability is another fairly telling factor don't you think?

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Yes, they can.

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
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#537835 26-Oct-2011 16:54

This was political repression. A police line is not repression.

History. Learn history.

codyc1515

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#537842 26-Oct-2011 17:04

John2010: @codyc1515 - It seems to me that you are claiming more rights for protesters than non protesters are entitled to. In my experience this is typical behaviour of protesters, all rights belong to them and if those rights impinge upon the freedom of those not protesting well that is just too bad.

For example -

codyc1515:Does this look like a free country? I would call this a police state. Picture #1: Police warrantlessly videoing people "in case" a crime is committed, statements are made that the video is not being stored in a database.

In a free country people can video others in a public place. It seems that you are saying that protestors (as they do) and the general public can do so but the police can not?

Or are you saying that no one can video others in a public place?

codyc1515:I quoted "New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 No 109" part 2 section 18 sub-section 1:
"Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand."

But that right of free movement does not extend to restricting the rights of others to their freedom of movement.

Are you claiming, as I know many protesters do, that their claimed moral high ground gives them the right to restrict the free movement of others?

If you are so claiming why can't others (including the police) claim their own moral high ground and impede the movements of protestors?

There are different rights for police that they agree to when joining the police force compared to the average person.

ScottStevensNZ:
codyc1515:
freitasm: They are not blocking freedom of movement. People can't just go scattering around, blocking other people's rights. So things need to be managed. You call it a "police state" because the line is formed by policeman.

I'd call a police state if everyone in that manifestation disappeared without explanation, were tucked inside a plane and then dropped into the ocean 100km out in the sea - like some right wing dictatorship used to do in South America in the 70s.

That's way different.

Are they letting anybody past? Don't think so, aka. violation.
Quoting source: "Everyone lawfully in New Zealand has the right to freedom of movement and residence in New Zealand."

They are breaking the law (prove me otherwise)!

Dude - Really? I've been to Stasi HQ in Berlin and I can assure you that the organs of a police state look considerbly different to what you've shown - I've also seen an original of the Nacht und Nebel decree - and I can assure you that is the very embodiment of what a police state is. The fact that you are here, complaining in public makes your claim that this is a Police State at best pitiable and at worst completely foolish. The fact that you are seeking legal advice - and the fact that the lawyer is in your employ and is bound to represent you to the best of his or her ability is another fairly telling factor don't you think?

I find it particularly funny that you all criticize my choice of vocabulary or my view on my and others rights but at no point actually try to point out what specifically I am wrong about, with evidence to back it up.

freitasm: Agreed. It all comes down to "your rights end where my rights begin"...

It is not my goal to infringe on others rights and I have not (to my knowledge) infringed on anybodies rights here.

freitasm: This was political repression. A police line is not repression.

History. Learn history.

It all depends on the persons point of view. For example, Wikipedia has this to say: "Oppression is the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner". I would tend to agree that randomly enforcing police barricades, as well as seizing peoples own property is unjust. First it is this, then what? Next you will have cameras inside your home, etc., etc., why wouldn't you if you have nothing to hide? (/sarcasm)

ScottStevensNZ

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#537843 26-Oct-2011 17:05

freitasm: This was political repression. A police line is not repression.

History. Learn history.

Learn History? Why on earth would you do that when history is so full of nasties like this http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/nightfog.htm,

and of course

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=stasi&x=0&y=0

Not to mention this charming paragon of man

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/5279.html

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
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#537844 26-Oct-2011 17:07

codyc1515: Next you will have cameras inside your home, etc., etc., why wouldn't you if you have nothing to hide? (/sarcasm)

Now you are putting words in other people's mouths.

codyc1515

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#537845 26-Oct-2011 17:08

freitasm:
codyc1515: Next you will have cameras inside your home, etc., etc., why wouldn't you if you have nothing to hide? (/sarcasm)

Now you are putting words in other people's mouths.

Did I say that anyone else said that?

ScottStevensNZ

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#537846 26-Oct-2011 17:08

I find it particularly funny that you all criticize my choice of vocabulary or my view on my and others rights but at no point actually try to point out what specifically I am wrong about, with evidence to back it up.

Interesting, so you beleive that the state has infringed your rights by preventing you from seeking legal advice from a lawyer in your employ, or for commenting on your beliefs in a public forum?

That was the point and the example I was attempting to make. By virtue of the fact that you can do those things freely seems to torpeedo your own argument.

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