Does running a TOR exit node make you a criminal

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bradi

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#106737 30-Jul-2012 23:04

TOR : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_%28anonymity_network%29 / https://www.torproject.org/

Will my ISP disconnect me for running a TOR Exit Node? What if I have disclaimers? What if I block all outgoing ports except 80 / 443?

Am I likely to get "noticed" by people I'd rather not be noticed by? What are the consequences of me doing this?

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#664334 31-Jul-2012 00:02

Your ISP doesn't care. But you have no control what people are using these for, so if they commit crime - it will point to you in first place.

bradi

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#664991 31-Jul-2012 21:55

freitasm: Your ISP doesn't care. But you have no control what people are using these for, so if they commit crime - it will point to you in first place.

No it will point to an IP address, which will point to a "netblock owner", who will refer you to possibly the user allocated to that IP at that time, who can (thanks technology) hopefully prove the traffic had nothing to do with them or implement a disclaimer... see

https://blog.torproject.org/running-exit-node

and

https://blog.torproject.org/blog/five-years-exit-node-operator

So FUD... or details please. So since it seems I have to spell it out... realistically nobody but me can guarantee that the packets leaving my router or NIC are mine or someone elses... so how do ISPs deal with this... and does it infringe upon ISP T&Cs?

freitasm

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#665004 31-Jul-2012 22:04

bradi:
freitasm: Your ISP doesn't care. But you have no control what people are using these for, so if they commit crime - it will point to you in first place.

No it will point to an IP address, which will point to a "netblock owner", who will refer you to possibly the user allocated to that IP at that time, who can (thanks technology) hopefully prove the traffic had nothing to do with them or implement a disclaimer... see

Good luck with that then. You seem sure of how things will go, so the whole topic is pointless really, surely?

gzt

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#665005 31-Jul-2012 22:08

ISPs used to have a clause stating you cannot operate a public information service. Ie; webserver. I haven't noticed this recently. In any case, running a torrent client is not much different to your case and I can't see TOR merits any more attention than that.

Why are you not asking ISP's these questions directly (and the privacy questions you raised in other threads) instead of this forum? You will get definitive answers instead of endless discussion.

What does the service agreement state for your ISP?

Discussion has been interesting but if you want definitive answers you will have to ask ISPs directly.

bradi

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#665051 31-Jul-2012 23:28

freitasm:
bradi:
freitasm: Your ISP doesn't care. But you have no control what people are using these for, so if they commit crime - it will point to you in first place.

No it will point to an IP address, which will point to a "netblock owner", who will refer you to possibly the user allocated to that IP at that time, who can (thanks technology) hopefully prove the traffic had nothing to do with them or implement a disclaimer... see

Good luck with that then. You seem sure of how things will go, so the whole topic is pointless really, surely?

Cmon, this is how it works. This is peoples experiences with this technology. If you can't add to the discussion factually then don't comment (or at least be prepared to get called out). I expected more from you mate.

bradi

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#665052 31-Jul-2012 23:29

gzt: ISPs used to have a clause stating you cannot operate a public information service. Ie; webserver. I haven't noticed this recently. In any case, running a torrent client is not much different to your case and I can't see TOR merits any more attention than that.

Why are you not asking ISP's these questions directly (and the privacy questions you raised in other threads) instead of this forum? You will get definitive answers instead of endless discussion.

What does the service agreement state for your ISP?

Discussion has been interesting but if you want definitive answers you will have to ask ISPs directly.

Cool, thanks. Ok, thought I'd start here first as there seem to be "people in the know" lurking. Perhaps they might contribute.... although I do like your comparison or rating of TOR - an anonymity network (which btw actually sucks for applications like bittorrent because of its very nature) to an excellent, efficient and fast content distribution technology.

This is a very interesting "geek" zone ;)

sbiddle

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#665065 1-Aug-2012 00:01

bradi:
freitasm:
bradi:
freitasm: Your ISP doesn't care. But you have no control what people are using these for, so if they commit crime - it will point to you in first place.

No it will point to an IP address, which will point to a "netblock owner", who will refer you to possibly the user allocated to that IP at that time, who can (thanks technology) hopefully prove the traffic had nothing to do with them or implement a disclaimer... see

Good luck with that then. You seem sure of how things will go, so the whole topic is pointless really, surely?

Cmon, this is how it works. This is peoples experiences with this technology. If you can't add to the discussion factually then don't comment (or at least be prepared to get called out). I expected more from you mate.

You're the one here who doesn't understand how things work.

If you're IP is pinpointed as being a source of dodgy traffic it's you who is liable. You can't prove it was somebody else using your connection, so the liability is with you.

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Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

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#665067 1-Aug-2012 00:06

As the telco expert you claim to be, you should know all about the police warrants ISPs get from time to time. (yes, including the fake ones)

Your questions would half bad if it weren't for your smugness, it's sickening.

bradi

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#665075 1-Aug-2012 00:56

insane: As the telco expert you claim to be, you should know all about the police warrants ISPs get from time to time. (yes, including the fake ones)

Your questions would half bad if it weren't for your smugness, it's sickening.

Hey mate, not trying to be smug, just confident. And I never claimed to be a telco expert (I'm not) I just work for one... plus I think the people who contribute here are providing a fantastic resource...

I sincerely apologise if I have offended you, that wasn't my intention, it's hard to try and keep a technical subject light and easy to read without waffling on or posting a bunch of links that nobody reads.

bradi

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#665087 1-Aug-2012 01:36

sbiddle:
bradi:
freitasm:
bradi:
freitasm: Your ISP doesn't care. But you have no control what people are using these for, so if they commit crime - it will point to you in first place.

No it will point to an IP address, which will point to a "netblock owner", who will refer you to possibly the user allocated to that IP at that time, who can (thanks technology) hopefully prove the traffic had nothing to do with them or implement a disclaimer... see

Good luck with that then. You seem sure of how things will go, so the whole topic is pointless really, surely?

Cmon, this is how it works. This is peoples experiences with this technology. If you can't add to the discussion factually then don't comment (or at least be prepared to get called out). I expected more from you mate.

You're the one here who doesn't understand how things work.

If you're IP is pinpointed as being a source of dodgy traffic it's you who is liable. You can't prove it was somebody else using your connection, so the liability is with you.

Ok, thanks. I apologise for my ignorance and appreciate all the contributions to my topics.... but I think I might've dragged this off-topic.

So specifically how does an ISP know about the dodgy traffic? How am I liable (other than for data / service costs or possibly disconnection for breach of T&C / Contract)? Why can't I prove it wasn't me?

Aren't these problems people have already got solutions to? Which ISPs are more likely to tolerate a well run TOR exit node?

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#665098 1-Aug-2012 06:20

You're stepping on a touchy area gouing around asking about ISP privacy policies, data monitoring and wanting to know how to hide dodgy traffic using TOR. One has to question what your motives really are.

freitasm

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#665112 1-Aug-2012 07:40

bradi:
freitasm:
bradi:
freitasm: Your ISP doesn't care. But you have no control what people are using these for, so if they commit crime - it will point to you in first place.

No it will point to an IP address, which will point to a "netblock owner", who will refer you to possibly the user allocated to that IP at that time, who can (thanks technology) hopefully prove the traffic had nothing to do with them or implement a disclaimer... see

Good luck with that then. You seem sure of how things will go, so the whole topic is pointless really, surely?

Cmon, this is how it works. This is peoples experiences with this technology. If you can't add to the discussion factually then don't comment (or at least be prepared to get called out). I expected more from you mate.

I will reply in small bits so you can understand:

1.You run a TOR exit, your IP address is the one people will see
2.Your IP address is easily linked to your account by your ISP, even if it's dynamic
3.If a warrant is presented to the ISP it will release your details to the authority requesting those
4.You are responsible for your connection. Good luck working yourself out of something someone else has done using your connection - it will cost you time and money and if you are not successful then you are the one responsible.
5.You are not an ISP so Safe Harbour provision wouldn't apply to you.

IANAL. AFAIK there's no precedent in such a case in New Zealand. So there's no " peoples experiences with this technology" as you say it because there isn't any experience here yet.

On the other hand you work for a telco (I wasn't going to say it, but since you already disclosed it), so I suggest you could use that huge counsel office and get definitive answers to your questions.

Now, don't come here being rude to myself or anyone else. Working for a telco won't prevent me from banning your account.

Now, read everyone's answers again and be nicer next time.

Lias

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#665239 1-Aug-2012 10:42

TOR does have some legit uses, and I like the anonymity and free speech concepts behind it, but I'd be VERY wary of running an exit node in NZ.

You can pretty much guarantee you'd be explaining to DIA and the police why your internet connection had been used in relation to distributing child porn, trading in illegal narcotics, etc within a fairly short timeframe.

I'm a geek, a gamer, a dad, a Quic user, and an IT Professional. I have a full rack home lab, size 15 feet, an epic beard and Asperger's. I'm a bit of a Cypherpunk, who believes information wants to be free and the Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. If you use my Quic signup you can also use the code R570394EKGIZ8 for free setup.

bradi

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#665826 2-Aug-2012 01:33

sbiddle: You're stepping on a touchy area gouing around asking about ISP privacy policies, data monitoring and wanting to know how to hide dodgy traffic using TOR. One has to question what your motives really are.

Question away :)

bradi

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#665827 2-Aug-2012 01:36

freitasm:
bradi:
freitasm:
bradi:
freitasm: Your ISP doesn't care. But you have no control what people are using these for, so if they commit crime - it will point to you in first place.

No it will point to an IP address, which will point to a "netblock owner", who will refer you to possibly the user allocated to that IP at that time, who can (thanks technology) hopefully prove the traffic had nothing to do with them or implement a disclaimer... see

Good luck with that then. You seem sure of how things will go, so the whole topic is pointless really, surely?

Cmon, this is how it works. This is peoples experiences with this technology. If you can't add to the discussion factually then don't comment (or at least be prepared to get called out). I expected more from you mate.

I will reply in small bits so you can understand:

1.You run a TOR exit, your IP address is the one people will see
2.Your IP address is easily linked to your account by your ISP, even if it's dynamic
3.If a warrant is presented to the ISP it will release your details to the authority requesting those
4.You are responsible for your connection. Good luck working yourself out of something someone else has done using your connection - it will cost you time and money and if you are not successful then you are the one responsible.
5.You are not an ISP so Safe Harbour provision wouldn't apply to you.

IANAL. AFAIK there's no precedent in such a case in New Zealand. So there's no " peoples experiences with this technology" as you say it because there isn't any experience here yet.

On the other hand you work for a telco (I wasn't going to say it, but since you already disclosed it), so I suggest you could use that huge counsel office and get definitive answers to your questions.

Now, don't come here being rude to myself or anyone else. Working for a telco won't prevent me from banning your account.

Now, read everyone's answers again and be nicer next time.

Wow! Thanks, but I'd prefer if you didn't contribute to this discussion further. But I realise this is your little corner of the Internet, so I'll restrain myself from the really obvious and just say good point re the legal counsel, although not going to hold my breath on that one.

Guess I might have to suck and see eh ;)

Cheers to all with constructive comments.

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