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607 posts

Ultimate Geek
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Topic # 175767 11-Jul-2015 01:44
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Pair gain is where multiple pots voice services are multiplexed onto the same copper pair, known as 1+1 in the industry.  This is done where there are insufficient copper pairs available to service all customers in a particular area (for voice only), one example is at the small settlement of Glinks Gully where we happen to own a bach.  Where pair gain is used, adsl is not possible on those pairs.

Now the reason for this post is because i'm trying to find out more about the line configuration at Glinks Gully and why Chorus cant supply more people with adsl here.  I have tried sending a PM to UFBinstaller earlier this week who seems to have read my message but I'm yet to get any response.  Glinks is a very close community and there are people here who want to get broadband but cant due to pair gain 1+1 being used on the 50pair feeder cable coming down from the top of Glinks Road.

Recently we had a new neighbour buy a house just up the hill from us who couldn't get broadband but could get a pots voice line on pair gain, so we're sharing him our broadband via ubiquiti link. Now my questions are, and hopefully someone can help.

1. How many pots voice lines are chorus multiplexing onto a single pair here, i'm assuming its 2 per pair, hence 1+1.  Researching "pair gain" reveals that its possible to multiple more than 2 lines onto a single pair depending on the pair gain equipment used.

2. If Chorus is only multiplexing a maximum of 2 voice lines onto each pair 1+1, and they were able to connect up our neighbour to voice only, this tells me that there was a pair in the 50pair feeder that was not doing 1+1 already with someone else and was probably in use by someone who wasn't on pair gain and had voice only with no adsl. At Glinks there are some people who have had voice lines for many many years since the post office days but have never tried to order adsl on their lines.

3. So if its true that Chorus are only multiplexing 2 voice lines per pair, why not do the following when the next person orders adsl: Get 2 pots voice only customers who are not on pair gain and put them on pair gain to free up to free up a pair for the customer who wants adsl?  Either this or replace the 50pair feeder cable which has already had half its pairs tied off due to corrosion.  This leaves only about 25 pairs for 70+ dwellings!

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1340962 11-Jul-2015 02:36
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it was 1+1 line cards, then that evolved to 2 + 2 line cards.  i don't think chorus would of created a new 1 + 1 connection, i suspect there was a 1 + 1 intact connection as such to your local ct that has had to be reused due to lack of cable pairs.  a 1 + 1 or 2 + 2 would only ever only carry 2 pots lines
a long time ago when i did allocation of that stuff we would always break 1 + 1 or 2 + 2 connections when ever possible. chorus has all those records in icms but it could just be that the cable has been fill for a long time hence has many 1 + 1 connections.
when 1 + 1 connections where being created no one had any idea about the internet let alone adsl




Anything I suggest or say is my own thoughts and not provided by anyone else unless stated

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  Reply # 1340975 11-Jul-2015 08:13
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sorry they where called 0+2 not 2+2 the newer ones




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  Reply # 1341134 11-Jul-2015 14:40
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1+1 hasn't been installed for many years. Nowadays it is 0+2 (and i think they have 0+4 too but have never seen one). The difference is 1+1 were installed in the home and a 0+2 gets installed out on the road, normally hanging on fence or buried in the little round pits with the terminals.

In my expereince 0+2 were a very very last resort and will go through a manual process of getting provisioned as someone needs to actually look at the other services so that the ocrrect lines get put on the 0+2 and not a DSL line for example.

3. So if its true that Chorus are only multiplexing 2 voice lines per pair, why not do the following when the next person orders adsl: Get 2 pots voice only customers who are not on pair gain and put them on pair gain to free up to free up a pair for the customer who wants adsl?  Either this or replace the 50pair feeder cable which has already had half its pairs tied off due to corrosion.  This leaves only about 25 pairs for 70+ dwellings!


This is essentially what they do. The little bit you may not be aware of is that the distribution cable may not actually be 50-pair all the way down the road. Normally it will start as 50-pair and then dwindle down to 25, then 12 and then maybe even 7. So what it could mean is the people who want DSL could be in the 12-pair section but all 12 of those pairs are either already used for DSL or marked as faulty. So when someone comes along to do the design for the 0+2 they find it's not actually possible. The other side to that is the faulty pairs may or may not be able to be repaired. The cable is probably direct buried so replacing a section would be a mammoth task and not something Chorus would just undertake because one person wants broadband. It sucks, but its just the way it is.

I can see this thread turning in to a big winge winge about Chorus and rural places and blah blah blah. But I'm going to say it anyway, perhaps Glinks Gully needs to look in to a community wireless project to distribute some decent broadband around the place? You would have to fund it yourselves but you would end up with a community owned network with any profits going straight back in to the community. There wouldn't even really need to be the need to make a profit once the gear was paid off and then residence could enjoy high-speed broadband at a fraction of the cost of city folk.

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  Reply # 1341460 11-Jul-2015 23:57
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Since ADSL in Glinks Gully is provided by a Conklin. According to gis.geek.nz and your old thread.  Even if those neighbours manage to get connected. It will be pretty poor performing.

Is the problem - Neighbours can't get any phone line at all? Or do they have a POTS line but cant get ADSL?


Also I have had a look at the Chorus rural fibre map. And there is fibre nearby. (Maybe that Conklin has been upgraded now?) Have a look at https://www.chorus.co.nz/rural-broadband-initiative/rural-fibre/fibre-to-rural-communities-1 From other threads the connection costs for rural fibre can easily be $5k+ But you can then get UFB at normal city prices and city speeds. Snap are an ISP that offers service on rural fibre.







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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1341470 12-Jul-2015 01:42
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This is essentially what they do. The little bit you may not be aware of is that the distribution cable may not actually be 50-pair all the way down the road. Normally it will start as 50-pair and then dwindle down to 25, then 12 and then maybe even 7. So what it could mean is the people who want DSL could be in the 12-pair section but all 12 of those pairs are either already used for DSL or marked as faulty. So when someone comes along to do the design for the 0+2 they find it's not actually possible. The other side to that is the faulty pairs may or may not be able to be repaired. The cable is probably direct buried so replacing a section would be a mammoth task and not something Chorus would just undertake because one person wants broadband. It sucks, but its just the way it is.


We are on the second street on the right as your enter the Glinks settlement, the street name is Tasman heights, (used to be a right of way). The 50pair feeder is overhead on poles from the top of Glinks Road and lands at Rope Cres which is the first street as you enter the settlement (Rope Cres also used to be a right of way), there are 3 houses down Rope Cres plus the camping group.  Tasman heights there are 10 houses including us. Rope Cres would have access to the full 50 pairs i'm assuming as this is where the feeder cable lands with a pillar at the bottom of pole.  The next street Tasman Heights its the same again with pole at beginning of street and pillar at bottom, but as per your message above some pairs have probably already dwindled down a few at this point.  However given the location we should still be in a section with nearly all pairs still physically in the feeder cable corroded or non corroded, our neighbour who we're sharing broadband with is also on Tasman Heights.  This main feeder cable runs for approx 1km from the top of Glinks Rd on poles to the first pillar at Rope Cres, there are no powerlines on these poles, they are wooden poles with just the 50pair feeder strung between them.  How much $$$ would the community need to come up with to have this cable replaced, that's if Chorus is unwilling to do anything?



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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1341471 12-Jul-2015 01:47
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Aredwood: Since ADSL in Glinks Gully is provided by a Conklin. According to gis.geek.nz and your old thread.  Even if those neighbours manage to get connected. It will be pretty poor performing.

Is the problem - Neighbours can't get any phone line at all? Or do they have a POTS line but cant get ADSL?


Also I have had a look at the Chorus rural fibre map. And there is fibre nearby. (Maybe that Conklin has been upgraded now?) Have a look at https://www.chorus.co.nz/rural-broadband-initiative/rural-fibre/fibre-to-rural-communities-1 From other threads the connection costs for rural fibre can easily be $5k+ But you can then get UFB at normal city prices and city speeds. Snap are an ISP that offers service on rural fibre.


Its ADSL2+ now, the cabinet was upgraded last year, still a little to far though for VDSL where we are.  The neighbours were able to get POTS with voice only but not ADSL which means they are on pair gain.

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  Reply # 1341816 12-Jul-2015 21:40
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so if your neighbor is on a 1+1 and applied for adls chorus would of looked at  the CT (little grey pillar) that feeds that address to see if there was a customer who in fact was not on a 1+1 and was only a pots customer  if there was they would of swapped them over so your neighbor could of got a adsl connection chorus don’t create new 1+1 customers i doubt the gear needed is still made, they would however reuse a intact 1+1, I would suspect that the neighbors house has been on a 1+1 for many years. They don't even create new 0+2 customers anymore either and have not done for years.
the 0x4 or 4wire that chevrolux mentions was something that was going to be used to deliver  layer 2 tails, something like hsns lite. they would have been connected to a port in a dslam and the far end was like a little modem with Ethernet ports, i don’t know of any that where put to use though. it has been a few years since i did any of that stuff so could be wrong




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  Reply # 1341842 12-Jul-2015 22:43
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The problem with 1+1 is that one of the lines has gear in the house with power, and the other is on a passive filter to remove the carriers. Neither can get DSL. Even if the customer on the powered half stops having phone service, there is still a filter on the other customers line that will block DSL. And the systems when you order just say no, even if there is no need for the 1+1 anymore.

Pricks of things. Is there no mobile coverage there so people are hanging onto landlines?




Richard rich.ms



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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1341862 12-Jul-2015 23:40
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No coverage on any of the networks, it's a complete dead spot unless you drive to the top of Glinks Road. I once though when I was in my late teens many years ago managed to get a txt on telecom by attaching my phone to a fishing kite and letting it up a good couple hundred meters.

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  Reply # 1341866 13-Jul-2015 00:00
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richms: The problem with 1+1 is that one of the lines has gear in the house with power, and the other is on a passive filter to remove the carriers. Neither can get DSL. Even if the customer on the powered half stops having phone service, there is still a filter on the other customers line that will block DSL. And the systems when you order just say no, even if there is no need for the 1+1 anymore.

Pricks of things. Is there no mobile coverage there so people are hanging onto landlines?

 

Nah if the other line is inactive a downgrade order will be sent out, assuming it's viable.

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Chorus NZ

  Reply # 1365866 13-Aug-2015 19:52
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Moving some lines to Baseband IP may be an option.

I'll ask around when I am back at work in a week (on Holiday ATM).

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