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# 39846 20-Aug-2009 14:19
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Hi Everybody,

I looked around geekzone and this seems to be the most appropriate location for this post.

Like many people, whenever I move to a new house I end up crawling around in the roofspace and/or under the floor, dragging around cables and adding power points and jackpoints. Haven't done it for a few years though and I now find that there are quite a few changes to how you should do things. Telecom's current code of practice is a lot different from earlier practice and is mostly a much better way. I only found out about this a bit late and that is partly because it appears that a lot of retail and even trade suppliers don't have a clue about the new changes and gave bad advice.

It was only after I had, not without some misgivings about the advice, wired up 6 outlet points, an alarm and a filter in star configuration, using standard mains wiring connectors, that I realised I had to do my own research. The result works but for how long? Also it's so ugly that it's terrifying.

The Telecom stuff I have been able to find is a bit disjointed and lacks a lot of practical detail. The government's Code of Practice for mains wiring is much better in my opinion.

I googled for quite a while before finding anything helpfull, mostly because I lacked the vocabulary for searching. This forum was much the most helpful of the web pages I found. However the phone side of things is treated in a bit less detail and I have a few questions

1/ Thanks to this forum, I now know I should use a Krone block to handle the star connection of the phone wiring. There is very little practical information on wiring up a Krone block on the web however. The actual connectivity is clear enough but I would dearly love to see some good photos of how to use the cable management features and where to tie the cables if anyone could post them. The few photos I have found on the web are just not adequate.

2/ Is it correct that the Krone pushdown connectors on the Krone distribution block are the same as that on the back of a standard BT phone jack and therfore I should be able to use the pushdown tool that you get with a BT jack?

3/ I read that the pushdown connectors on RJ jacks and RJ patch panels are a different system called 110 and that the older ones were not compatible with the Krone/BT tool but the newer ones are. Is that right? If so, how do you tell if you have the newer sort? Are the jacks etc that you can buy at present likely to be all the newer pattern?

4/ Some on this site suggest that all sockets in the house, even phone sockets, should be RJ45 jacks. This seems odd to me. Is this in fact what Telecom is requiring and/or what should be done and , if so, what are the reasons?

5/ I assume that the only jack that absolutely must comply with Telecom's wishes is the first, unshielded socket in the system, the one that should be labelled “TEST”? What are the allowable types of jack for this one in particular?

6/ Telecom used to recommend that all sockets be identical 2-wire sockets, to balance the circiut (Whatever that means, it's a very long time since this Civil Engineer did Electrical Engineering I). RJ jacks and the latest 2C type of BT jack have no ringing capacitors. Does this mean that I shouldn't use any new jacks without replacing all existing ones? Or could I save a few cents by cutting off the capacitors?

7/ The lack of capacitors means that very old phones won't ring if plugged into the new jacks. Is there any sort of adaptor that can be used without unbalancing things again?. Since modern phones work because they have their own capacitors, how come they don't unbalance the circuit?

What a lot of questions! I hope that theanswers might be of interest to others.

Thank you,

Peter

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  # 249063 20-Aug-2009 15:11
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Hi Peter, I will start with some of the questions, firstly there are two IDC header types, a Krone style one where the metal fork of the IDC receptor are at angles and the 110 type where they are not. In theory you should use the appropriate tool for each, however in practice if you are careful a Krone will do both, where as a 110 tool will struggle with a Krone, I use the correct one as needed. Both IDC types are current and just as common, although Krone is more European and 110 is of US origin.

I am a strong supporter of wiring a home on a similar vein to the structured cabling standards (ie all fully wired RJ45 modular sockets with cat5e or cat6 cabling) to a central data capable patch panel where phone services or ethernet services can be patched to a desired TO (Telecom outlet). Telecom PTC106 details how structured cabling should be implemented in the domestic environment, this can be obtained from the Telepermit site.

The test jack according to PTC106 should be a RJ45 socket with the inbound (external) line terminating on pins 4/5 and the internal wiring connected to pins 1/2 and a jumper plug that connects these two together is installed to connect the external and internal wiring. Removal of the jumper isolates the external line so it can be tested with a test phone.

Telecom require that you replace all older Master/Slave BT sockets with 2C type, and dont mix and match, there is no real technical reason for not mixing and matching other than some older phones might not work, so you can do it if you must, however I recommend forgetting BT sockets and moving to the more flexible structured wiring solution with RJ45 modular jacks.

Older phones had much larger ringing current demands compared to modern ones, so the balance issue is less of a problem. What can be an issue is the single 3rd bell wire can act as a beverage antenna and couple interference in the LF and MF radio band spectrum that is shared with ADSL to cause ADSL issues, so I recommend you dump all Master/Slave sockets and go for a 2wire system, again ideally on RJ45, but on BT 2C if you must.

Also be aware that the older Master/Slave 3wire BT sockets were prone to corrode and have all manner of quality issues with time, therefore should be replaced with 2C for this reason alone.

Hope this helps

Cyril

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  # 249064 20-Aug-2009 15:11
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The Biddle Corporation had some good stuff working backwards from here. Cyril7 also has good advice.

The unbalance came from the wire extending through the cable run. Type "2" jacks with a capacitor are OK.

I don't think phone jacks every where add much, IMHO a decent cordless with multiple handsets is far more useful.

 
 
 
 


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  # 249153 20-Aug-2009 18:30
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The worse 3-wire setup I heard of picked up the local FM radio station faintly in the background of calls.

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  # 249170 20-Aug-2009 19:52
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Hmm, normally its AM that you pick up. If I put 40 m of 3 wire cabling on the phone socket of a DSL filter I get at least 3 ethnic stations burbling away in the background. Thank god voip doesnt have that sort of crap happening.

PABX masters will gointo your on wall RJ45s and give you a ringing capacitor on a BT socket for the odd phone that needs it, but I havent seen one in ages that needs it.




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  # 249191 20-Aug-2009 20:57
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Couldn't believe how someone wired a house recently - like 50* BT jacks everywhere, and like 1/2 dozen RJ45's. At least the saving grace is all the cables go to a central accessible point.

*OK slight exaggeration on number of BT points, but definitely a lot more BT's than RJ45's




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their xDSL broadband network faster and even more now as they are upgrading their rural Conklins. If your still stuck on ADSL or VDSL, why not spend $195 on a master filter install to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, data cabling and general computer support for home and small business.
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  # 249200 20-Aug-2009 21:06
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And the crazy thing is that with multi handset dects costing stuff all, and the typical nz house being so small that one base will cover it all that noone uses them all, except when using it for a second line which means they need the patching and stuff which is normally not done in most houses for the PSTN sockets.




Richard rich.ms



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  # 249276 21-Aug-2009 07:46
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Hi Cyril,
Thank you for your help. My place is all 2-wire, so it seems as if it would be fine to leave the old jacks in place for now. I am going to install an ATA so I can use VOIP. Will the 2-wires be OK with that set-up?

I knew about the Krone versus 110 issue but had seen discussion of old and new 110 variants. Cannot find the link alas, some US cable installers forum I think. I think 110D was mentioned?

I am a bit woried about the all-RJ45 approach for a home. I'd be most interested in comments on the following:

Things are far less controlled at home than in an office. I understand that babies can easily get their sticky fingers into an RJ45. That's likely to be pretty safe, if a bit yuck, for ethernet but not in a phone jack, surely.

Presumably there is no real problem in subjecting Gigabyte Ethernet gear to ringer voltages? Even so, I don't like the idea. Someone will plug a data cable into a phone jack, just because they can.

Another factor is that everybody and his dog are bound to discover that they can plug in an RJ11/12 cable and it will work fine. Until that is, someone wants to use the socket for ethernet and finds the outer pins are borked.

I read somewhere on Telecom's site that the BT socket was deliberately designed to use the widest spaced pins possible. Not sure why but, if it was good practice then, how come it is now recommended to use adjacent pins?

As has been pointed out, DECT phones reduce the pressure for flexibility quite a bit in a small house. In any case, given the low cost of both jacks and cable, if you did want more flexibility, wouldn't it be better to just run 2 cables to each outlet and have a BT 2-C on one and an RJ45 on the other?

Trouble is, it doesn't seem that either BT 2-C or RJ11 jacks are going to be readily available in retail. Why are they still selling those hugely expensive 2-wire jacks, e.g. in Bunnings at least up to 3 months ago. A 2-C shouldn't cost much more than an RJ jack to manufacture I'd have thought.

Is the jumper plug mentioned in PTC106 available off the shelf? That would be a lot tidier and less vulnerable than a made-up one.

I was intrigued by your panel. How is development going? I can't understand why this sort of modular solution isn't just standard and on the shelf next to the ASDL routers at Dck Smith's. Would have saved me lots of trouble if it was. I really like the idea of an isolating switch. Are they an acceptable alternative to the jumper plug? Are they readily available? How are they connected, by IDC?

I got my krone blocks and a 30-pair box today(Signet STDBOX30). Was on order, so the box was sight unseen. Having got it I am in a bit surprised. There is barely room for more than a dozen cat 5 cables in the entry clamps. This is OK for me but seems a bit miserly for a 30 pair box. If you want more than 4-6 cables however, the cables will foul the mounting brackets for the Krone blocks. It looks as though the sheaths will have to be terminated at the clamp and only the conductors taken onward. Is this really desirable? As you see, it'sthe practical details that are really banjaxing me. Photos anyone?

Regards,

Peter

 
 
 
 


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  # 249286 21-Aug-2009 08:12
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coffeebaron: Couldn't believe how someone wired a house recently - like 50* BT jacks everywhere, and like 1/2 dozen RJ45's. At least the saving grace is all the cables go to a central accessible point.

*OK slight exaggeration on number of BT points, but definitely a lot more BT's than RJ45's


I went to fix up the wiring at a friend's new house recently. He had left all the cabling in the hands of his electrician who presumably wasn't to keen on listening to anybody else's advice.

Their 2 story house has 16 BT jackpoints around the house (has two living areas, kitchen and 5 bedrooms) and 16 RJ45 sockets. Dual BT/RJ45 sockets were used everywhere and it's wired back to a Signet box.

He's obviously now finding the limitations of such a setup when they only have a few phones in the house but only have one data jack on each faceplate. I suspect I might be going back to make more changes in the future!

There certainly needs to be a lot more education in the industry, electricians are still obsessed by looping since they do that with power every day. That can't understand how bad that is for phones and data.

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  # 249298 21-Aug-2009 08:41
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Hi peter, I have tested 90V ringing up a Ethernet active port, all survived so not too much of an issue. As for babies pocking their fingers in, well maybe we should be looking at some population control regime anyway, but I have not seen any reports of toddlers killed by phone sockets.

By the way in Aus now, the RJ45 is now one of three acceptable phone sockets, the RJ11 and old style Aussie 6pin being the other, however all new installs must use a RJ45 as the test demarcation socket, by law with RJ45 sockets preferred.

I dont know of an off the self RJ45 jumper, I just make my own, 2seconds work.

The 30pair boxs are a pain, I dont use them any more there is simply not enough room, a 50pair box costs slightly more and does not have the same cable managment issuess.

As for the panel, I have put it to aside just at the moment but still install them myself and get a lot of enquires via the net and have sold quite a number. I have just designed a new panel with similar features that uses 110 IDC for Signet, it will fit on the standard 6" Hubble format and includes the new VDSL2 capable filters.

Cheers
Cyril



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  # 249338 21-Aug-2009 10:48
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry! I'm happy to learn that my issues with the signet 30 are real and not just noob diy stupidity. But grrrrr.. How does such a useless product ever get on the market? Unfortunately, I have already installed the 10pair blocks and can't get them out to return or modify the box.



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  # 249340 21-Aug-2009 10:55
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Hi Cyril,

I just noticed your mention of "new VDSL2 capable filters". Oh heck, does that mean my brand new MM3200B will be obsolete in short order?

Cheers,

Peter

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  # 249345 21-Aug-2009 11:03
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Hi, no I would not worry the MM3200B is just fine for ADSL2+, however if you want to go to VDSL2 with pots which requires you are within 1km of the DSLAM, and has a cost premium then you will need to change the filter, however if you go naked then no filter is needed anyway, same applies with ADSL2+, no filter is needed if naked.

Currently VDSL2 is only on a pilot scheme not on general release, although that is soon to change.

I can assure you I wont be changing my filter anytime soon.

Edit: If you push a small screwdriver down the side of the block where the back panel inserts then it should release with a bit of push and shove and appropriate face contortion. In the past I have either biffed the lid away, or used a hacksaw to modify the lid so that the cables can enter nearer the corners, and cable tie them to the metal cable clamps which are in the wrong place. Just dont cut the tounge that secures the lid to the base.

But I have to agree, it appears to be a product designed by someone who has never used it!

Cyril



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  # 249426 21-Aug-2009 13:59
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Thanks Cyril,

It's these practical hints that I really really need and appreciate.

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  # 249432 21-Aug-2009 14:12
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If you are doing cabling then also think about the other runs you may need like HDMI over cat6, cameras over it etc - when you have the boxes and the tools out its easy to do, when you have to get it all out again later its a pain in the you know what.




Richard rich.ms

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