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Ultimate Geek
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# 251258 15-Jun-2019 15:14
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This article on Stuff (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/113447617/fog-delays-at-nz-airports-could-be-blown-away-by-transtasman-technology-project) says "The [NZ] Government intends to piggy-back on an initiative by Australia, which last year earmarked A$225 million (NZ$238m) to buy and operate a Satellite-Based Augmentation System (SBAS) that will improve the accuracy of GPS location data from about 4 metres to just 10cm."

 

Is this just WAAS (the US Wide Area Augmentation System), or are the Aussies going to invent something uniquely Australian?
If it is WAAS, why do we have to work with the Aussies, and why is it going to take four years?

 

The Japanese already have two WAAS-compatible satellites in geostationary orbit (they call the system MSAS / Multi-functional Satellite Augmentation System), and presumably NZ could latch onto that by installing some ground stations and paying the Japanese civil aviation authorities a licensing fee to access their satellites.
All modern (or even modern-ish) aircraft should already be fitted with a WAAS-compatible satnav system, as it is widespread in high-volume parts of the world - as well as the original US WAAS and the Japanese MSAS, there's EGNOS (the European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service).


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 2263037 23-Jun-2019 18:41
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An update on this
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/save-lives-government-announce-2-million-investment-into-gps-technology

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Uber Geek
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  # 2263059 23-Jun-2019 20:21
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At least they have dropped the statements about turboprops landing in fog. Who knows where that information came from. I don't know if the ministers even know what the $2 m gets them.




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  # 2263061 23-Jun-2019 20:26
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I'm convinced the Minister has absolutely zero knowledge of what this technology will do, and that's incredibly scary.

 

Last week she was saying how it would let turboprops land in fog, and this week she's saying it will help Uber (how?!)

 

 


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  # 2263062 23-Jun-2019 20:30
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Is there a video @sbiddle?




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  # 2263065 23-Jun-2019 20:39
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Ah. I take that back. They are still saying it will fix flight cancellations. Nope.

 

 

 

I agree with Steve. Someone is telling the politicians porkies.





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  # 2263075 23-Jun-2019 20:55
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sbiddle:

Last week she was saying how it would let turboprops land in fog, and this week she's saying it will help Uber (how?!)


 



At least it was better than what I saw in Australia last week, they were saying it will allow all aircraft to use baro VNAV approaches, which aren’t even designed yet...

Which was strange as I’ve been flying Baro VNAV approaches in both countries for a quite a while now.

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  # 2263078 23-Jun-2019 21:04
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But she did say it's going to work 101%. If navigation is depending on it, I'd be happier with exactly 100%.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2263082 23-Jun-2019 21:20
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This is not the first time this minister has demonstrated she has nfi what she is on about, so just move on.

Cyril

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  # 2263145 24-Jun-2019 07:35
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One of the issues for general aviation is the expense of certified GPS systems... multiple thousands of dollars for a GPS receiver that is no more accurate than a cellphone, but does know when it is inaccurate. This is particularly significant given the imminent mandatory upgrade to Mode-S transponders, which need a GPS to feed location information.

 

I'd hope that this new improved system would (a) work on "ordinary" GPS receivers, and (b) provide 100% availability. However, I can't see how it will provide either of these things. You'll need a way to receive the corrections from the new geostationary? satellite (why couldn't these also be received by some other comms path?), and there won't be any improvement in GPS satellite geometry and availability.

 

It seems to me that we could set up a bunch of "ground satellites" (GPS transmitters at fixed locations, high points like hilltops and mountain peaks for maximum accessibility) which would giveus those benefits.

 

And I don't see how improving accuracy from 10m to 10cm will help someone like a rescue helicopter... if they're within 10m of an accident site and can't see it, they have other problems! I can see the benefit for LINZ and surveyors and people needing to create and use maps though.

 

 


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  # 2263148 24-Jun-2019 07:41
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hairy1:

 

Ah. I take that back. They are still saying it will fix flight cancellations. Nope.

 

 

 

I agree with Steve. Someone is telling the politicians porkies.

 

 

As much as rescue helicopter pilots should be a credible source of information, the fact they're not quoted as saying "hundreds of lives will be saved per year" deeply concerns me. 

 

What data is there to substantiate the fact they're claiming hundreds of lives are lost per year from rescue helicopters that are unable to reach patients due to poor weather conditions? That sounds incredibly far fetched to me.

 

Sage is still claming turboprops will be able to land in fog and basically has zero concept of what SBAS can and will actually deliver in the real world. Her Uber comment really just demonstates how it's simply over her head.

 

 

 

 


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  # 2263171 24-Jun-2019 08:55
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Regarding the rescue heli advantages, a pilot spoke to Mike Hosking this morning and it answered questions I had.

 

He said that it allowed the choppers to go lower than before and that meant they were able to get under cloud cover in ropy weather enabling them to see the people on the ground.

 

He also said in cold places like Otago in winter, they could safely fly to hospitals at 3,000 metres rather than the current 6,000 metres. This was important because choppers had no anti-icing capability and they experienced icing at 6,000 metres but 3,000 metres was below the icing point.

 

Made sense to me.


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  # 2263222 24-Jun-2019 09:24
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Feet not metres.




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  # 2263250 24-Jun-2019 10:47
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sbiddle:

 

Sage is still claming turboprops will be able to land in fog and basically has zero concept of what SBAS can and will actually deliver in the real world. Her Uber comment really just demonstates how it's simply over her head.

 

 

40 years ago the Greens ( and those before them) were screaming to high heaven that NZ was deeply in bed with the US war machine by authorising the building of the Black Birch Observatory near Takapo for the US Naval Observatory to provide accurate star locations as part of the "Transit Circle Project" (the data was dual use and it was claimed it would get used by the US military for missile guidance)

 

Now we have a Green Minister promoting and funding a project involving Lockheed Martin. (and which will also likely have military applications) and saying its the best thing since sliced bread because it will mean her Uber will know what side of the street she is on.....

 

How things have moved on...

 

 


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  # 2263271 24-Jun-2019 11:17
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hairy1:

 

Ah. I take that back. They are still saying it will fix flight cancellations. Nope.

 

 

 

I agree with Steve. Someone is telling the politicians porkies.

 

 

They should get the MP that called the internet, SkyNet to look after this...... :-)


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  # 2263285 24-Jun-2019 11:33
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A subject dear to my heart. 

 

Only about 10 to 15 years too late. We're (that's Australia and New Zealand) are about the only developed part of the world without SBAS. Over 5 years ago the US and Canada had WAAS, Japan, MSAS, India GAGAN, Europe EGNOS, Russia SDCM. WAAS has been in operation since 2003.

 

Back in 2014, on behalf of my then employer I wrote a submission about SBAS to the "Intelligent Transport Action Plan".

 

PolicyGuy:

 

Is this just WAAS (the US Wide Area Augmentation System), or are the Aussies going to invent something uniquely Australian?

 

SBAS is the overarching name for this technology. WAAS is the North American version of it, ditto for MSAS in Japan and GAGAN in India etc.

 

Are the Australians going to invent something uniquely Australian? I don't know but from what I have read, I fear so. They have a track record of doing this. Having said that we need our own system for this part of the world, we are too far away to use the Japanese MSAS system. However it could just be a clone of another system. More on that later.

 

PolicyGuy:

 

If it is WAAS, why do we have to work with the Aussies, and why is it going to take four years?

 

It isn't economically viable for New Zealand to go alone on an SBAS system, we need to team up with the likes of Australia to be able to afford it.

 

Why four years? At a guess ground stations need to be built and access to the NAVSTAR control network will need to be negotiated and there may be a delay in getting access to a geostationary satellite which will host the SBAS transponder.

 

PolicyGuy:

 

The Japanese already have two WAAS-compatible satellites in geostationary orbit (they call the system MSAS / Multi-functional Satellite Augmentation System), and presumably NZ could latch onto that by installing some ground stations and paying the Japanese civil aviation authorities a licensing fee to access their satellites.

 

We are too far away from Japan for their signal to be of any use. SBAS works through having a series of ground stations located within the area to be serviced by the SBAS system. These ground stations each know their exact location and compare this with the computed location using the received GPS signal. From this the GPS error is calculated to find out the error correction factor This correction factor is transmitted to the geostationary satellite which in turn broadcasts the signal for GPS receivers to use. The GPS receivers need to have the ability to receive and make use of the correction factor.

 

The correction factor for the Japan area will be different to the South Western Pacific area.

 

sbiddle:

 

I'm convinced the Minister has absolutely zero knowledge of what this technology will do, and that's incredibly scary.

 

Last week she was saying how it would let turboprops land in fog, and this week she's saying it will help Uber (how?!)

 

 

The turbo props landing in fog is entirely possible with this technology as it can give equivalent accuracy to the ILS which is used in Auckland for CAT III, BUT and it is a BIG BUT you also need all the ground infrastucture that goes with the CAT III approach which is installed in Auckland and providing the aircraft are properly equipped and the crew appropriately trained. To say simply say SBAS will allow them to land in fog is a stretching it a bit when you consider the context in which this was said.

 

How will it help Uber? One of the big uses for SBAS is autonomous vehicles. They need to be able to navigate very accurately and SBAS is an enabler for that to happening. The likes of Uber are planning autonomous vehicles so, Yes, I'd say it could benefit them.





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