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Topic # 165995 27-Feb-2015 08:25
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This Net neutrality thing will it happen here?
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Is an English Man living in New Zealand. Not a writer, an Observer he says. Graham is a seasoned 'traveler" with his sometimes arrogant, but honest opinion on life. He loves the Internet!.

 

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  Reply # 1247548 27-Feb-2015 08:39
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We don't have strict net neutrality in New Zealand, if you think of unmetered sites - or ISP plans with packages that charge more for faster access to one site or another.






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  Reply # 1247549 27-Feb-2015 08:41
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First of all I'm interested in what your definition of net neutrality is.

The simple reality is there is no such thing as net neutrality using the definition that many people consider it to be. It's a concept that simply has not, can not, and never will exist. Ethernet (and the Internet) as a whole is a multiplexed medium that's inherently capable of incompatible with the concept.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1247553 27-Feb-2015 08:44
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sbiddle:

 

First of all I'm interested in what your definition of net neutrality is.

The simple reality is there is no such thing as net neutrality using the definition that many people consider it to be. It's a concept that simply has not, can not, and never will exist. Ethernet (and the Internet) as a whole is a multiplexed medium that's inherently capable of incompatible with the concept.



Sorry, Steve. Agree with lots of things you say but what do you mean with "Ethernet (and the Internet) as a whole is a multiplexed medium that's inherently capable of incompatible with the concept."






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  Reply # 1247563 27-Feb-2015 09:03

ISPs still have the ability to prioritize traffic based on its source and charge for better Qos.

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  Reply # 1247583 27-Feb-2015 09:31
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I expect most reasonable people take the middle ground. They don't want their ISP to deliberately cripple open services so that they can charge for their own. But on the other hand, I doubt anyone really wants their Netflix to buffer every 10 seconds because some numbnuts is hogging 90% of the backhaul doing torrents.




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  Reply # 1247586 27-Feb-2015 09:35
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sbiddle:

 

First of all I'm interested in what your definition of net neutrality is.

The simple reality is there is no such thing as net neutrality using the definition that many people consider it to be. It's a concept that simply has not, can not, and never will exist. Ethernet (and the Internet) as a whole is a multiplexed medium that's inherently capable of incompatible with the concept.

 



I was just quoting form the verge




Is an English Man living in New Zealand. Not a writer, an Observer he says. Graham is a seasoned 'traveler" with his sometimes arrogant, but honest opinion on life. He loves the Internet!.

 

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  Reply # 1247587 27-Feb-2015 09:36
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No, there is no net neutrality here. Spark and Vodafone (blue (TelstraClear)) still charge everyone they can get away with doing so to local peer with them. pretty much every other service provider makes good use of the abundance of low cost peering exchanges.

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  Reply # 1247590 27-Feb-2015 09:46
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gnfb:
sbiddle: First of all I'm interested in what your definition of net neutrality is.

The simple reality is there is no such thing as net neutrality using the definition that many people consider it to be. It's a concept that simply has not, can not, and never will exist. Ethernet (and the Internet) as a whole is a multiplexed medium that's inherently capable of incompatible with the concept.



I was just quoting form the verge


But what is your definition of what net neutrality is?

My sentence above made no sense..

The simple reality is Ethernet is a multiplexed medium that is built around the concept of DSCP, 802.1p and packet priorities and flow control. To say that every packet that travels over the internet should be treated exactly the same way isn't the way Ethernet (or the Internet) currently works, and if that was the case the Internet as we know it would suffer a meltdown.

Treating each and every packet equally seems to be concept of "net neutrality" as many people know it, and can never happen. This is very different to the problem they're trying to solve of artificially restricting or shaping products or services for commercial reasons, which an entirely different argument.


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  Reply # 1247683 27-Feb-2015 11:49
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sbiddle:
Treating each and every packet equally seems to be concept of "net neutrality" as many people know it, and can never happen. This is very different to the problem they're trying to solve of artificially restricting or shaping products or services for commercial reasons, which an entirely different argument.



Why not? All you need is bigger pipes and all packets can equally co-exist. The whole argument against net neutrality is about not having to invest in bigger infrastructure. Once you have a 100MB/s line packet prioritization it doesnt matter anymore. When a 2GB download only takes a few seconds, all other services wont be impacted much.

I already pay my ISP for access to the internet, I also pay my hoster for server traffic, why would I need to live with restrictions? Because my ISP claims to know what traffic is more important for me?



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  Reply # 1247701 27-Feb-2015 12:06
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testha: All you need is bigger pipes and all packets can equally co-exist. 


ZOIDBERG

One finest quality biggerest pipe please.

Honestly ... do you really believe that? Bigger pipes aren't free. If you want bigger pipes, you pay for them. However, the economics of connectivity at the moment shows (surprisingly) that people want to pay less for it, not more.




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  Reply # 1247720 27-Feb-2015 12:28
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testha:
sbiddle:
Treating each and every packet equally seems to be concept of "net neutrality" as many people know it, and can never happen. This is very different to the problem they're trying to solve of artificially restricting or shaping products or services for commercial reasons, which an entirely different argument.



Why not? All you need is bigger pipes and all packets can equally co-exist. The whole argument against net neutrality is about not having to invest in bigger infrastructure. Once you have a 100MB/s line packet prioritization it doesnt matter anymore. When a 2GB download only takes a few seconds, all other services wont be impacted much.

I already pay my ISP for access to the internet, I also pay my hoster for server traffic, why would I need to live with restrictions? Because my ISP claims to know what traffic is more important for me?




to stop motorway congestion all you need is more lanes and all cars can equally coexist.
 
Once you have a 100 lane motorway, all cars will be able to travel at 100kph their entire journey. (and if people decide to just hog multiple lanes of the motorway with extra wide cars and jackknifed lorries, just because they find it fun to do so, the solution is to just build more lanes.)

I pay my taxes and rates for access to these motorways with a speed limit of 100kph.  I also paid Mitsubishi for a car capable of going 100kph or faster.   Why should I live with restrictions and slow downs at peak time?

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  Reply # 1247824 27-Feb-2015 14:18

NonprayingMantis:
to stop motorway congestion all you need is more lanes and all cars can equally coexist.
 
Once you have a 100 lane motorway, all cars will be able to travel at 100kph their entire journey. (and if people decide to just hog multiple lanes of the motorway with extra wide cars and jackknifed lorries, just because they find it fun to do so, the solution is to just build more lanes.)

I pay my taxes and rates for access to these motorways with a speed limit of 100kph.  I also paid Mitsubishi for a car capable of going 100kph or faster.   Why should I live with restrictions and slow downs at peak time?


What a bad comparison.

How many books can you store in a book shelf? How many can you store on a e-reader? Comparing the virtual world with the physical does not work.

There are already a few countries with 100MB/s lines for way less money than is being charged here and the ISPs are profitable. Once you invested in a proper infrastructure there are no additional cost besides administration, maintenance and power.

A more honest approach to advertised speeds will help. Instead of advertising a maximum, tell the minimum guaranteed speed and let customers choose which speed/product they want. Right now a lot of customers think they get the same product, but they dont. And when to many of them are trying to max out their lines they get slow speeds and suddenly ISPs are talking about the need of traffic shaping so VOIP still works.

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  Reply # 1247860 27-Feb-2015 15:18
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testha:
NonprayingMantis:
to stop motorway congestion all you need is more lanes and all cars can equally coexist.
 
Once you have a 100 lane motorway, all cars will be able to travel at 100kph their entire journey. (and if people decide to just hog multiple lanes of the motorway with extra wide cars and jackknifed lorries, just because they find it fun to do so, the solution is to just build more lanes.)

I pay my taxes and rates for access to these motorways with a speed limit of 100kph.  I also paid Mitsubishi for a car capable of going 100kph or faster.   Why should I live with restrictions and slow downs at peak time?


What a bad comparison.

How many books can you store in a book shelf? How many can you store on a e-reader? Comparing the virtual world with the physical does not work.

There are already a few countries with 100MB/s lines for way less money than is being charged here and the ISPs are profitable. Once you invested in a proper infrastructure there are no additional cost besides administration, maintenance and power.

A more honest approach to advertised speeds will help. Instead of advertising a maximum, tell the minimum guaranteed speed and let customers choose which speed/product they want. Right now a lot of customers think they get the same product, but they dont. And when to many of them are trying to max out their lines they get slow speeds and suddenly ISPs are talking about the need of traffic shaping so VOIP still works.


the only bad bit about the comparison is that it is a lot easier for a single individual to use masses and masses of international banwidth than it is for an individual to clog up a 100 lane motorway on their own.

One single customer intentionally maxing out a Gb line in 'Gigatown' with international traffic is going to be costing the ISP that allows them to do it around $20,000 per month just for the international capacity. (international capacity is roughly $20/Mbps. $20 x 1,000Mbps = 20,000) not to mention the national backhaul, handover links etc


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  Reply # 1247893 27-Feb-2015 16:11

NonprayingMantis:
the only bad bit about the comparison is that it is a lot easier for a single individual to use masses and masses of international banwidth than it is for an individual to clog up a 100 lane motorway on their own.


Nope, the amount of roads you can build in NZ is limited by the amount of physical land mass available. Opposite to internet traffic, where advances in technology (Moores Law) speed up the routers handling the traffic, ever increasing internet speeds.


NonprayingMantis:
One single customer intentionally maxing out a Gb line in 'Gigatown' with international traffic is going to be costing the ISP that allows them to do it around $20,000 per month just for the international capacity. (international capacity is roughly $20/Mbps. $20 x 1,000Mbps = 20,000) not to mention the national backhaul, handover links etc


I fail to see why this extreme example is an argument against neutrality. If you have a requirement for more international capacity due to user demand you can purchase more. This isnt a technical issue, its a business decision.

I mean there are already 4K TVs and shows, to be able to stream 4K you need 25Mb/s. Plus web traffic, VOIP, gaming, downloads a 100Mb/s internet access will be the norm. Better to plan ahead in my opinion than think about short term RoI.



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  Reply # 1247918 27-Feb-2015 16:36
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You seem to be under the impression all those routers are free. They're really not.




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