Building a new house - IC-F rated LED downlights the way to go?

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#748715 22-Jan-2013 12:03

Are you really not considering anything other than downlights?

Niel

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#748982 22-Jan-2013 16:44

Some people like the clean look of recessed fittings.

If you wait long enough then you will find nice lights that screw onto the ceiling. It is not recessed, but it is as flat as a pancake. The advantage is there is no IC or CA or other rating to worry about, and the hole in the ceiling is only for the wire to pass through. To me it makes perfect sense, use relatively cool ambient air to cool the LEDs rather than the hot ceiling air. They are starting to come on the market.

One of the issues we have is that we are a small market, and another is companies need to get their return on investment in LED bulbs. Then there is the small issue over compliance and CTick etc.

Regarding aluminium window frames, regulation says it must have a thermal break so it is not as bad as old aluminium frames. We would have considered PVC (someone at work got triple glazing with PVC), but it was a very tight budget to build the house and then the builders charge 20% on top of RRP for anything other than their minimum spec.

Auckland is also not a cold climate. I've seen photos of London from friends, now that is a cold climate. And is there anyone beyond Auckland? (Sorry, could not resist.)

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Niel

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#749662 23-Jan-2013 16:00

Cosy Dome is an option if you find a fitting you love which is not IC rated. But it is expensive at about $35 each (with valve option). See page 10.

http://www.plastics.org.nz/documents/Newsletters/January%202013.pdf

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Wilko

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#749716 23-Jan-2013 17:05

That Cosy Dome seems to be a good solution. More information is available at http://www.cosydome.co.nz.

Thanks for bringing it to my notice. As an architectural designer I usually try to disuade clients from using downlights, but I may have to review my recommendation in the future!

timmmay

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#749724 23-Jan-2013 17:16

That's a retrofit solution, not a solution for new builds. It's a better than nothing kludge, but I'd want to see an independant study of how effective it was before I used it. Sure it'll reduce drafts, but there's still a big hole in your insulation. Does anyone know if they're compliant with any regulations?

New builds should use IC-F rated lights with proper insulation over them. Retrofit should too.

Niel

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#749774 23-Jan-2013 18:58

timmmay: Does anyone know if they're compliant with any regulations?

On the Cosy Dome web site, read the technical page.

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timmmay

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#749852 23-Jan-2013 21:18

I'm still not that impressed with it. Sure it will stop a draught, but you still have a massive hole in your insulation.

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Wilko

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#749879 23-Jan-2013 21:46

The hole cut-out for the light is sealed by the dome, with the ventilation grill at the top of the fitting only opening at a temperature of >40 degrees. The insulation can butt right up to the cosy dome as long as it does not cover the ventilation grille.

It sounds like a good solution to me.

Skolink

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#749911 23-Jan-2013 22:49

If we had a 4x5m room with R4 ceiling insulation, four sealed downlights with 100mm cutout, assuming the downlight had an insluation value of only R0.1, then the overall insulation would be R3.77 would it not? A 6% increase in heat loss.

Perhaps more realistically though, if the downlights have a cutout of 80mm, and an R value of R0.5, then that is an overall value of R3.97, a 0.7% increase in heat loss.

mattwnz

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#749925 23-Jan-2013 23:09

Have you thought about either button lights, or tubes that aren't recessed into the ceiling.
Also came across this website http://www.switch-lighting.co.nz/LED-Downlights/, but always a little wary when they don't mention the prices. The pricing is the first thing people want to know.

jjnz1

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#749933 23-Jan-2013 23:25

timmmay: Are you really not considering anything other than downlights?

Most people don't care about practicality, and would happily pay an extra hundred or so bucks per year to run nice looking fittings.

Plus, in our house it gets hot all the time due to the insulation. Even sitting outside getting sunburn is cooler than sitting in our lounge area. My wife also wants me to remove our surface mounted ceiling lights and install new downlights (about 8 of them), hopefully that will cool things down a little bit too.

Go for the CA rated 950W LED fittings I reckon. Out of all the houses I have worked in throughout the past, the new houses with 50-100 halogen down lights were the most warmest due to all the insulation within them. It doesn't matter about the holes, because the rest of the NEW house is soooo tight! (Old houses are a different story).

wallop

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#749964 24-Jan-2013 05:27

mattwnz: Have you thought about either button lights, or tubes that aren't recessed into the ceiling.
Also came across this website http://www.switch-lighting.co.nz/LED-Downlights/, but always a little wary when they don't mention the prices. The pricing is the first thing people want to know.

I saw the switch lighting as well. Lighting Plus sell them. Expensive though $185. Currently on special at $138. If they have a 50% off sale I might try some.

CYaBro

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#749966 24-Jan-2013 07:37

We've just recently built a new house and have a mixture of pendant lights and led recessed lights.
I bought mine from Wattsaver in Australia.
They cost about $70 each including the seperate driver and shipping.
They are ca80 rated.
Awesome led lights that put out a great light and are very bright.
They are dimmable too.

Having the holes in the insulation I feel hasn't made any difference to the heating if the house.
As others have already pointed out new builds these days are so air tight having anyway.
So much so that we found out we have to open some windows when using the range hood extractor fan in the kitchen with the fire going, otherwise the smoke gets sucked back into the house rather than going up the chimney!
Last winter the house temperature never really dropped below around 15 degrees without any heating at all.

Opinions are my own and not the views of my employer.

timmmay

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#749971 24-Jan-2013 07:48

Wilko: The hole cut-out for the light is sealed by the dome, with the ventilation grill at the top of the fitting only opening at a temperature of >40 degrees. The insulation can butt right up to the cosy dome as long as it does not cover the ventilation grille.

It sounds like a good solution to me.

It's a good retrofit solution if you don't have CA rated fittings. It's not a good solution for new homes where solid insulation is best.

Skolink: If we had a 4x5m room with R4 ceiling insulation, four sealed downlights with 100mm cutout, assuming the downlight had an insluation value of only R0.1, then the overall insulation would be R3.77 would it not? A 6% increase in heat loss.

Perhaps more realistically though, if the downlights have a cutout of 80mm, and an R value of R0.5, then that is an overall value of R3.97, a 0.7% increase in heat loss.

That's incorrect. Take a look at the consumer chart I posted on an earlier page. Small gaps in insulation make a huge different to the effectiveness. The lighting industry calls downlights "chimneys".

Plus, in our house it gets hot all the time due to the insulation. Even sitting outside getting sunburn is cooler than sitting in our lounge area. My wife also wants me to remove our surface mounted ceiling lights and install new downlights (about 8 of them), hopefully that will cool things down a little bit too.

Insulation keeps homes cool as well. You need to prevent heat getting in, for example by using curtains with white backs.

I have a similar problem with my older house though. It can be 16 degrees outside at night in summer, but still 22 degrees inside. However I prefer to use the air conditioner for a half hour to cool the place down rather than increase the heating requirements by 100% in winter, as the consumer diagram shows.

I do have downlights in my bathroom, but they're the IC-F rated ones. They work great, I have 5 in a 4x2.5m bathroom, it's as bright as you'd want. They have a piece of translucent plastic at the bottom of them, so the effect is to spread the light more than some downlights.

mrcamel

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#749985 24-Jan-2013 08:28

Iv decided to take the plunge on the IC-F rated Switch lighting downlights....fingers crossed they will be bright enough for all rooms...the argument that making holes in insulation that iv paid an upgrade for, won me over.....

I understand having a sealed new house could mean it could get stuffy or heat will get trapped....which is why i also have prewired for a heatpump in the open plan living+kitchen area, and for the master bedroom....with both units sharing the same outside fan :-)

Now i just need to find some LED sensor spotlights for the outside hehehe.....i hear Philips may have some new ones coming out....

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