Drinking in NZ

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#1979655 19-Mar-2018 10:47

tdgeek:

networkn:

tdgeek:

Massively increase drink drive penalties is a start. Fines must go up. Include instant car impoundment overnight at a certain level. Make that one week then one month at higher levels. Reduce exemptions. That wont stop the drink culture but it will remove a lot of it from the roads. Then the bars will complain as many will drink at home. At least that will keep it off the road and off the pavement.

Yes, it is ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, but its an easy fix for now

Could be wrong here, but first offence drink driving is 6 months no license, is it not?

No idea, I thought any excess meant a fine and loss of licence. Now, for a responsible person who made a stupid mistake, they pay the fine, lose licence, learn a lesson. For the ones that are no hopers, they wont pay the fine, they will drive the car. A TV news item a while back was about boy racers. Heaps of fines, one had 30k worth, still smiling. Impoundment will hurt and be a major inconvenience, and they have to pay storage etc. dads car, tough, work car there would need to be some form of release for that. It needs to be tough.

There's a lower limit these days with a non-criminal fine ($200?) / 50 demerit points, for driving with 250-400 mcg (IIRC equivalent to 50-80 mg blood alcohol).

TBH, I think this thread would be better if it stuck with the impact of alcohol in general - rather than focus on driving. Absolutely not endorsing slackness on drink driving, but I think it's reasonably argued that driving at just over the present alcohol limit (but staying under the speed limit) just as likely to die or kill someone else in an accident as you are when speeding by 5-10 km/h, yet the former is treated much more harshly than the latter. Somewhere there's a study commissioned by the LTSA giving the details of that. There are plenty of causes of serious accidents, alcohol is one of them. IIRC increased risk for a driver over 30 with a blood alcohol at the limit of causing an accident is just under 20%. Increased road policing is possibly the answer. I've been driving for over 40 years - have been random breath-tested only once, in the middle of the day.

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#1979659 19-Mar-2018 10:50

Plenty of studies that show driving tired is as bad as driving drunk. In the earlier days of her Medical career, my wife would drive home after an overnight shift after a long week and say she often felt unsafe to drive. I am glad we are past those days now, but I am sure it's still prevalent in shift workers all over the country.

Having said all of that, I agree general discussion rather than soley driving focused, probably more constructive.

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#1979664 19-Mar-2018 10:55

Fred99:

tdgeek:

networkn:

tdgeek:

Massively increase drink drive penalties is a start. Fines must go up. Include instant car impoundment overnight at a certain level. Make that one week then one month at higher levels. Reduce exemptions. That wont stop the drink culture but it will remove a lot of it from the roads. Then the bars will complain as many will drink at home. At least that will keep it off the road and off the pavement.

Yes, it is ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, but its an easy fix for now

Could be wrong here, but first offence drink driving is 6 months no license, is it not?

No idea, I thought any excess meant a fine and loss of licence. Now, for a responsible person who made a stupid mistake, they pay the fine, lose licence, learn a lesson. For the ones that are no hopers, they wont pay the fine, they will drive the car. A TV news item a while back was about boy racers. Heaps of fines, one had 30k worth, still smiling. Impoundment will hurt and be a major inconvenience, and they have to pay storage etc. dads car, tough, work car there would need to be some form of release for that. It needs to be tough.

There's a lower limit these days with a non-criminal fine ($200?) / 50 demerit points, for driving with 250-400 mcg (IIRC equivalent to 50-80 mg blood alcohol).

TBH, I think this thread would be better if it stuck with the impact of alcohol in general - rather than focus on driving. Absolutely not endorsing slackness on drink driving, but I think it's reasonably argued that driving at just over the present alcohol limit (but staying under the speed limit) just as likely to die or kill someone else in an accident as you are when speeding by 5-10 km/h, yet the former is treated much more harshly than the latter. Somewhere there's a study commissioned by the LTSA giving the details of that. There are plenty of causes of serious accidents, alcohol is one of them. IIRC increased risk for a driver over 30 with a blood alcohol at the limit of causing an accident is just under 20%. Increased road policing is possibly the answer. I've been driving for over 40 years - have been random breath-tested only once, in the middle of the day.

Fair points. My take, i.e. focusing on driving, is to make it hurt. Impounding does that. Where the punishment actually is excessive for the crime. We need to make drink driving a huge NO, the perception then is that drinking in general, partners that. The aim is that social drinking is fine and acceptable. excess drinking where ever, is socially unacceptable. The target market is those that drink to excess, they need to be hurt bigly. And they tend to drive.

Today, a drunk at 3am in the CBD is normal. Wild parties at 3am are normal. Something needs to be punished so that its socially unacceptable, as today its not, its normal. We may not like it, but its normal. Punish and punish big

Fred99

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#1979667 19-Mar-2018 10:57

I think it's also fair to note that not all people react to alcohol in the same way, and there are physical reasons for that (absence or low levels of enzymes which break down metabolites of ethanol) and feel unwell or flushed etc. after drinking a very small quantity. So someone who doesn't "like" alcohol may not be puritanical, but simply more averse to side effects that they're more prone to. I guess they're at risk of being socially isolated in NZ's relatively boozy culture.

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#1979671 19-Mar-2018 10:59

Fred99:

I think it's also fair to note that not all people react to alcohol in the same way, and there are physical reasons for that (absence or low levels of enzymes which break down metabolites of ethanol) and feel unwell or flushed etc. after drinking a very small quantity. So someone who doesn't "like" alcohol may not be puritanical, but simply more averse to side effects that they're more prone to. I guess they're at risk of being socially isolated in NZ's relatively boozy culture.

Heh, yeah for sure. Try being a non-drinking teenager! It's not pleasant.

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#1979672 19-Mar-2018 10:59

MurrayM:

I wonder why people feel the need to get totally wasted? It's not just young people, I know people my age who are also heavy drinkers.

I believe there are a variety of reasons. Not everyones brains process alcohol the same way, hence why you get loud drunks, or sloppy drunks etc.

Having said that, alcohol removes inhibitions in most people so their ability to process consequences is affected.

MikeAqua

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#1979676 19-Mar-2018 11:05

To me this is in the same general category of dog control. Most people can own dog without casing anyone else any problems. Alcohol is the same.

I don't have problem with adults getting drunk provided they don't endanger, harm or harass others. Most people can/do get drunk in a harmless manner. Individual adult drinkers are responsible for their behaviour. My approach is to come down hard on people causing problems for others.

In addition ...

We could hold licensees to account more harshly for sale to intoxicated persons and minors. In both cases they are selling to people whose judgement is considered to be impaired.

We could also look at what to do with people who pre-load then come to town, loiter and cause problems.

Firstly crack down on anti-social behaviour in public places. Secondly give the police the discretion to move groups of intoxicated people on and/or have a curfew for people <18. Finally give cops the power to do something about under-age people who are intoxicated/stoned in public - by fining them or the parent(s) (fines commutable to alcohol counselling). Obviously this won't work with those kids from dysfunctional homes.

Mike

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Fred99

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#1979687 19-Mar-2018 11:12

I do also believe that there's strong confirmation bias behind some of the drinking "culture", and a lot of it is myth based.
For example, I've been to a few 21st birthday parties over the past few years (nephews & nieces, sons and daughters of friends etc). It seems that some of the antics my generation got up to when drinking became "legend" due to stories repeated, and unless my memory of those times fails me, have become vastly exaggerated and trivialised as an initiation rite into adulthood - and portrayed as "good" or "normal". One recently, they played a game of drinking "shots", watching my wife's 21YO cousin down shots with a crowd cheering her on, until the inevitable where she collapsed, threw up on the floor, and was damned lucky for it to not have a worse end. I was there - not very happy to see that happening in front of my eyes, but like everyone else, did nothing to stop it. I think (perhaps I'm wrong) that this ritual isn't very unusual - as I've seen similar a few times. At the inevitable "roasting" speeches for 21st and particularly grooms, the biggest cheers seem to be for stories about when the subject did something extremely dumb when drunk out of their minds. These at functions full of "respectable" and successful people.

MikeAqua

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#1979708 19-Mar-2018 11:24

Fred99:

... someone who doesn't "like" alcohol may not be puritanical, but simply more averse to side effects that they're more prone to. I guess they're at risk of being socially isolated in NZ's relatively boozy culture.

I think of a person as puritanical only if they want to stop others drinking or are intolerant of others' decision to drink. I also think it's these people who risk social isolation.

I have recently cut down drinking significantly due to medical decision I made. Some people I drink with know the reason, others don't. Not one person has commented. Not one.

A couple of weeks ago we had a boys weekend away. My friends are big drinkers. Everyone except me hit the booze I was DJ and sober driver and put away half a dozen session ales over the entire weekend. It wasn't an issue at all.

Mike

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#1979710 19-Mar-2018 11:25

MurrayM:

I would describe myself as a light social drinker, now in my early 50's. I've never been much of a drinker (sure, a few times I've drunk too much to the point of being sick, but I could count those times on one hand).

I wonder why people feel the need to get totally wasted? It's not just young people, I know people my age who are also heavy drinkers.

Personally, I didn't like the way I felt the day after (hung over) and so that was enough reason for me to avoid it happening.

Am I unusal in my attitude?

Similar. I now drink - mostly - alcohol free beer.

On special occasions I will drink decent wine or, ideally, decent champagne. Don't mind a nice Port with the cheese course.

I find I get a headache very quickly now if I have more than the equivalent of 1 beer, so why bother?

Before we closed our B&B for renovation, we commonly saw guests leave more empty alcohol bottles after a 2 person one night stay that my wife and I would put out in 2 months. Astonishing. Also unbelievably expensive.

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#1979713 19-Mar-2018 11:28

MikeAqua:

Fred99:

... someone who doesn't "like" alcohol may not be puritanical, but simply more averse to side effects that they're more prone to. I guess they're at risk of being socially isolated in NZ's relatively boozy culture.

I think of a person as puritanical only if they want to stop others drinking or are intolerant of others' decision to drink. I also think it's these people who risk social isolation.

I have recently cut down drinking significantly due to medical decision I made. Some people I drink with know the reason, others don't. Not one person has commented. Not one.

A couple of weeks ago we had a boys weekend away. My friends are big drinkers. Everyone except me hit the booze I was DJ and sober driver and put away half a dozen session ales over the entire weekend. It wasn't an issue at all.

Social isolation isn't a risk - it's a delight for some.

I'm not intolerant of other people's choice to get drunk, behave like prats and make themselves ill - that is entirely their choice. I am 100% intolerant, however, when their choice starts impinging on the rest of us - when they ruin other people's evenings out, when they fight strangers for no reason, when they crash cars, when they run people over or whatever. THAT I am exceedingly intolerant of.

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#1979714 19-Mar-2018 11:29

I didn't drink until I found out my first girlfriend had been cheating on me. So umm.... yay ? :)

I only drink at private social occasions, such as birthdays, BBQs etc. If I know I have to be somewhere the next day, I'll tend to have a few but not enough to get "drunk" and get driven home by the wife. Only time I'll get "drunk" is when I'm with people I know, and am staying the night there. If its a day time, event I don't tend to drink much.

Back when i was younger, mates and I would get together and have a drinking session, just for the hell of it. Today, think its just to forget about work etc, turns off the brain.

Gavin / xpd / FastRaccoon / Geek of Coastguard New Zealand

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MikeAqua

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#1979718 19-Mar-2018 11:31

Geektastic:

I'm not intolerant of other people's choice to get drunk, behave like prats and make themselves ill - that is entirely their choice. I am 100% intolerant, however, when their choice starts impinging on the rest of us - when they ruin other people's evenings out, when they fight strangers for no reason, when they crash cars, when they run people over or whatever. THAT I am exceedingly intolerant of.

I agree with this. Society is justifiably intolerant of the behaviour you describe and has outlawed almost all of it. The ahole behaviour that isn't quite illegal should be handled by bar/restaurant staff quickly.

Mike

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#1979740 19-Mar-2018 11:35

Pumpedd:

MikeAqua:

I'd change you slogan to "You don't need to be an idiot when drunk". Plenty of people regularly get drunk without causing harm to anyone else.

If adults want to get drunk, I don't have any issues with that. I object if people hurt others, cause trouble, drive drunk etc.

Saying what you said about getting drunk is very immature. People are only idiots if their actions are deemed irresponsible or offensive as a result of being drunk. Humans have been getting intoxicated on various substances since Adam and Eve, so nonsense words from minority views will not change much, as was proven during American prohibition.

I'm not quite following your criticism - specifically why you think it's immature for me to say that being drunk does not necessitate being an idiot and that I'm OK with people getting drunk provided they behave themselves?

PS I no longer get drunk, but that's for medical reasons not social ones.

Mike

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#1979743 19-Mar-2018 11:39

xpd:

I didn't drink until I found out my first girlfriend had been cheating on me. So umm.... yay ? :)

Please don't take this is as criticism of you personally.

Having said that, I believe this is one of the fastest ways to head to problem drinking. Drinking to temporarily relieve some real or imagined pain, or to escape a reality you don't like or as a coping/crutch mechanism.

This is where education should be focused. Drinking (if you want to) for the "right" reasons.

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