No Jab - No Pay!

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1421 posts

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#1282230 13-Apr-2015 15:02

richms: IMO the govts job is to run the most affordable healthcare system possible. If getting a jab for all reduces the overall cost of the system then do it. People are too wound up about individual rights forgetting that they are part of a society.

IMHO it is the govts job is to run the most affordable healthcare system possible. If NOT getting a jab for all reduces the overall cost of the system then do it. People are too wound up about THE LATEST SCARES AND FADS forgetting that they have a brain and should use it.

Fred99

13684 posts

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#1282231 13-Apr-2015 15:04

robjg63:

My late grandmother told me stories about the spanish influenza outbreak in Christchurch when she was a little girl. It was pretty shocking.

If there was to be another outbreak of such a virulent and transmissible influenza strain (probable?), then the chance that a vaccine could be developed quickly enough to be of any use is close to zero, the global spread would be very much faster, the likelihood of anti-virals (like tamiflu) working effectively is also close to zero, the number of ICU beds/staff/resources wouldn't even come close to meeting demand, the only real hope may be that antibiotics might reduce the death toll from secondary infection.

That's the bad news. We just need to keep our fingers crossed that there's some good news - the fact that it hasn't happened again to that scale (despite some close calls) may indicate that because we now probably get similar but less virulent strains frequently because of global travel and high population density (and/or are vaccinated against many strains), then globally we may have some partial immunity at a high enough level to get away with virulent strains not going pandemic as quickly as they did then (that's an optimistic scenario, also based on the observation and theory that highly virulent strains are initially less easily transmitted, and if they mutate to become more easily transmissable, they generally also mutate to become less virulent).

old3eyes

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#1282232 13-Apr-2015 15:05

Dairyxox: I'm not claiming to be more qualified, I'm claiming to be most the most interested in my offspring's well-being.
I'm all about making an informed decision

I refuse to trust any qualified professional at face value. Who knows what payoffs they get. Think for yourself, question authority.

I'm not worried about the old school vaccinations, but the new ones. Don't want my kids to be guinea pigs.

Ok if you don't want your kids jabed and they get sick because of it you should pay the full cost of their medical care and not the taxpayer..

Regards,

Old3eyes

nunz

1421 posts

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#1282234 13-Apr-2015 15:05

Geektastic:
KiwiNZ: While I agree whole heartedly with vaccination the proposed Australian solution is draconian and I would not like that to be considered here.

Choice is only useful when those entrusted to make the choices have adequate information and ability to properly do so. Some people need to be told what to do.

Choice is only useful when those entrusted to make the choices have no vested interests, egos or social agendas. the market is too involved in our health choices now for us to blindly trust what we are being told.

Geektastic

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#1282243 13-Apr-2015 15:11

nunz:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ: While I agree whole heartedly with vaccination the proposed Australian solution is draconian and I would not like that to be considered here.

Choice is only useful when those entrusted to make the choices have adequate information and ability to properly do so. Some people need to be told what to do.

Choice is only useful when those entrusted to make the choices have no vested interests, egos or social agendas. the market is too involved in our health choices now for us to blindly trust what we are being told.

Your doctor is not handing out health advice based on how many Fly Buys he gets per flu jab....

People have been vaccinated against most of these things since the vaccines were available decades ago. Suddenly deciding that kids should be denied protection against preventable illness is a form of child neglect.

Since there is no minimum intelligence level required to produce children, we should not expect all parents to be equally capable of making proper decisions.

Sideface

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#1282248 13-Apr-2015 15:15

nunz: ... Choice is only useful when those entrusted to make the choices have no vested interests, egos or social agendas. ...

Do you know anybody who has no vested interests, ego or social agenda?

Sideface

networkn

Networkn
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#1282250 13-Apr-2015 15:16

Sideface:
nunz: ... Choice is only useful when those entrusted to make the choices have no vested interests, egos or social agendas. ...

Do you know anybody who has no vested interests, ego or social agenda?

Nice.

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nunz

1421 posts

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#1282258 13-Apr-2015 15:23

old3eyes:
Dairyxox: I'm not claiming to be more qualified, I'm claiming to be most the most interested in my offspring's well-being.
I'm all about making an informed decision

I refuse to trust any qualified professional at face value. Who knows what payoffs they get. Think for yourself, question authority.

I'm not worried about the old school vaccinations, but the new ones. Don't want my kids to be guinea pigs.

Ok if you don't want your kids jabed and they get sick because of it you should pay the full cost of their medical care and not the taxpayer..

Okay, if you GET your kids jabbed and they get sick because of it you should pay the full cost of their medical care and not the taxpayer.???

35000 reported adverse affects to vaccines in the USA last year and possibly up to 700 000 adverse affects, mostly not reported - according to the CDC and FDA

There are 318m people in the USA
23-25% of them are under 20 = 80m
Assuming a standard age spread (which is incorrect as there are more under 16 as a percentage than under 20)
remove under 5s and over 15s to give us school age kids in the 5-15 age bracket (innoculation age) =40 million

Around 1 to 2% will have an adverse reaction to vaccination.

If vaccination is also on kids under 5 then the figure goes down to 0.6 to 1.5% will have an adverse reaction.

Some of those reactions will include death or non recovery( approx 7/35 = 20% of all adverse reactions)

Which equates to 60million (0-15 years), * 0.8% (median figure) * 20% =
960 000 adverse reactions with permanent / long term effect or death possible and

48 000 reported adverse reactions per year with LONG TERM EFFECT, PERMANENT EFFECT OR DEATH

Compare that figure to deaths from what we are vaccinated against - it makes for an interesting fiscal comparison when you realise long term effects mulitply with each years LTEs adding onto the cost of previous years LTES support and maintenance.

nunz

1421 posts

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#1282259 13-Apr-2015 15:25

networkn:
Sideface:
nunz: ... Choice is only useful when those entrusted to make the choices have no vested interests, egos or social agendas. ...

Do you know anybody who has no vested interests, ego or social agenda?

Nice.

Yup. I do. They are totally without ego and entirely able to make the most selfless decisions. Do you?

But until Jesus returns .... we at least need to remove the temptations for financial rewards and the possibility of corruption from the health processes as much as possible, and unfortunately we are sliding down the path of the USA where vested interests and lobbyists run the govt decisions.

nunz

1421 posts

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#1282260 13-Apr-2015 15:28

Geektastic:
nunz:
Geektastic:
KiwiNZ: While I agree whole heartedly with vaccination the proposed Australian solution is draconian and I would not like that to be considered here.

Choice is only useful when those entrusted to make the choices have adequate information and ability to properly do so. Some people need to be told what to do.

Choice is only useful when those entrusted to make the choices have no vested interests, egos or social agendas. the market is too involved in our health choices now for us to blindly trust what we are being told.

Your doctor is not handing out health advice based on how many Fly Buys he gets per flu jab....

People have been vaccinated against most of these things since the vaccines were available decades ago. Suddenly deciding that kids should be denied protection against preventable illness is a form of child neglect.

Since there is no minimum intelligence level required to produce children, we should not expect all parents to be equally capable of making proper decisions.

Sittingin the doctors roomlast month i couldn't help but notice all the branding on his pens, calendars, desk covers, wall pad, clock, card holders, pen holders etc etc etc. Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us. Tell someone something enough times and they will start to believe.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Do you believe me yet? no read on.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

Keep reading, you too will believe.

Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.
Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.
Doctors are bombarded by the medical profession and are as humanly vulnerable to influence as the rest of us.

wasabi2k

2096 posts

Uber Geek

#1282264 13-Apr-2015 15:40

Wow. Vaccine stuff gets people ANGRY.

While I agree that there are occasionally legitimate reasons not to - these are exceedingly rare. As has been stated there is a clause for exclusion on legitimate medical grounds.

Do people have reactions to vaccines? Sometimes, that is why you are required to stay at the medical centre for 20 minutes afterwards.

Do vaccines contain "toxins" (what the hell is a toxin, really) such as mercury - no.
Are doctors paid to force your kid into getting vaccinations - no.
Do vaccines cause autism - no.

Is there a very small risk of a reaction to a vaccine - yes, and this is clearly communicated before you receive them.

Do the benefits of the currently mandated vaccines massively outweigh the risks? By a mile. You are putting your child at the risk of massive suffering, even death - because of the perceived chance of a potential reaction. This is not sound reasoning.

If you think vaccinations are a scam - please get your head checked. Who is controlling this grand conspiracy? It hasn't been exposed in this day and age? Please.

Also - spamming a single line over and over is not a convincing argument.

wasabi2k

2096 posts

Uber Geek

#1282268 13-Apr-2015 15:46

nunz:
Compare that figure to deaths from what we are vaccinated against - it makes for an interesting fiscal comparison when you realise long term effects mulitply with each years LTEs adding onto the cost of previous years LTES support and maintenance.

Your logic utterly fails here. If we didn't vaccinate we would be dealing with massive outbreaks of preventable diseases such as whooping cough and measles. Hell, we might get lucky and get stuff like smallpox and polio back too.

That would cease to be a financial discussion. Our health system would not cope. What do you think the world would actually be like without vaccinations? Do you realise that the H1N1 flu scares are made a big deal of because they have potentially CATASTROPHIC consequences. We live in a world with daily travel around the world, containing something infectious is potentially impossible.

This is not boo hoo I have spots, but death on a massive scale. I am privileged to have never experienced a massive outbreak, but I have read about a lot of them - THAT is what immunization prevents. IF people with your opinion were the majority, that is what you are working for.

If you don't immunize your kid and they don't get sick, thank the people who did vaccinate. Your child is benefiting from their immunity.

nunz

1421 posts

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#1282273 13-Apr-2015 15:56

wasabi2k: Also - spamming a single line over and over is not a convincing argument.

Please open mouth and insert sense of humour - look at the line that preceded the repeated line.

wasabi2k: Wow. Vaccine stuff gets people ANGRY.
While I agree that there are occasionally legitimate reasons not to - these are exceedingly rare. As has been stated there is a clause for exclusion on legitimate medical grounds.
Do people have reactions to vaccines? Sometimes, that is why you are required to stay at the medical centre for 20 minutes afterwards.
Do vaccines contain "toxins" (what the hell is a toxin, really) such as mercury - no.
Are doctors paid to force your kid into getting vaccinations - no.
Do vaccines cause autism - no.
Is there a very small risk of a reaction to a vaccine - yes, and this is clearly communicated before you receive them.
Do the benefits of the currently mandated vaccines massively outweigh the risks? By a mile. You are putting your child at the risk of massive suffering, even death - because of the perceived chance of a potential reaction. This is not sound reasoning.
If you think vaccinations are a scam - please get your head checked. Who is controlling this grand conspiracy? It hasn't been exposed in this day and age? Please.

While I agree that there are occasionally legitimate reasons not to - these are exceedingly rare

Disagree - HPV vaccine - not required, not helpful and not beneficial to children. And it is one of the std vaccines we are given so not rare but quite the opposite.

If you can give me facts to refute my distaste for my 6 year old getting an anti STD vaccine, please feel free to do so. There is no benefit to a six year girl getting HPV vaccine but there is risk - and if you can tell me why I am wrong - please do - with facts to refute the facts I have given - I am more than ready to learn.

Also as my boys wont get ovarian cancer, giving them the HPV vaccine is a complete waste of time / money but is a risk.

If you think vaccinations are a scam - please get your head checked. Who is controlling this grand conspiracy? It hasn't been exposed in this day and age? Please.

I never mentioned a conspiracy - i did mention economic pressures put on decision makers by corporates that influences decisions. look at the whole tami flu debacle - someone made a killing on that and it was for nothing.

Lastly - my arguments are mainly not anti-vaccine - they are mostly pro social responsibility , pro personal responsibility and anti discrimination - if you put them back in context of the original post.

toprob

126 posts

Master Geek

#1282274 13-Apr-2015 15:57

wasabi2k
...
Do the benefits of the currently mandated vaccines massively outweigh the risks? By a mile.
...

You are right, my kids are a lot safer than kids in the past, and I appreciate that. But as a parent I want to be able to gauge the risk for each jab, for MY child. My oldest reacted badly to one vaccination, I remember it being a very scary time, and I suspect that without medical intervention it might have been very serious. So when no 2 came along, it was more difficult to make the decision -- after all, even if I know that there is a huge benefit to the country overall, here we are talking about the health and safety of my child.

In the end we were offered a lower-strength version, which seemed a good compromise. by kid No 3 it was easier to make the decision to have her vaccinated, as we had learnt a lot by then.

It's all very clever to know what's right, and there are a lot of clever people here, but nobody should be forced to do anything which may harm their kid without weighing up the pros and cons. Personally, the health of any one of my kids outweighs all the rest of the kids in NZ.

nunz

1421 posts

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Inactive user

#1282277 13-Apr-2015 16:02

wasabi2k:
nunz:
Compare that figure to deaths from what we are vaccinated against - it makes for an interesting fiscal comparison when you realise long term effects mulitply with each years LTEs adding onto the cost of previous years LTES support and maintenance.

Your logic utterly fails here. If we didn't vaccinate we would be dealing with massive outbreaks of preventable diseases such as whooping cough and measles. Hell, we might get lucky and get stuff like smallpox and polio back too.

That would cease to be a financial discussion. Our health system would not cope. What do you think the world would actually be like without vaccinations? Do you realise that the H1N1 flu scares are made a big deal of because they have potentially CATASTROPHIC consequences. We live in a world with daily travel around the world, containing something infectious is potentially impossible.

This is not boo hoo I have spots, but death on a massive scale. I am privileged to have never experienced a massive outbreak, but I have read about a lot of them - THAT is what immunization prevents. IF people with your opinion were the majority, that is what you are working for.

If you don't immunize your kid and they don't get sick, thank the people who did vaccinate. Your child is benefiting from their immunity.

I never advocated for not vaccinating - what I have advocated for is not being forced into vaccinations through financial extortion. Read my post again - it starts, my children are vaccinated - mostly!!

I then make a solid case against the HPV vaccine. IE no 6-10 year old girl should be vaccinated against an STD

I then point out that if i was on a benefit the Aus Govts decisions would force me to do something potentially dangerous to my child or else.

I then give the stats from the CDC / FDA showing that vaccines do cause damage

- none of this have you refuted - but instead choose to pick pieces of my argument out of context and misrepresent me as an anti vaccine biggot -

please - if you are going to comment on my post - do so in context of my entire argument as a cohesive whole, not pieces of it out of context. My argument it mostly against discrimination and for the rights to make sensible choices for our children - no matter what the PC erroneously crowd think.

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