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#1282444 13-Apr-2015 19:19

Sideface:
NZtechfreak: ... Between 1 January 2005 and 31 December 2009, the Centre for Adverse Reactions Monitoring received 4,757 reports of adverse events following immunisation of which 174 (3.6%) were considered to be serious, as set out in table 2. More than one vaccine may be given at the same time. Therefore some reports appear more than once in table 2. ...

Interesting. Can we have an image or link to "table 2" please.

Sure, once my fully vaccinated children are down to sleep and I'm not on mobile.

Just wanted to point out, in case anyone missed it: nunz math on serious adverse effects is orders of magnitude incorrect. Just to be crystal clear on that. For me the question is why? Bad data? Bad math? Deliberate misrepresentation? I presume it's probably an error.

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#1282465 13-Apr-2015 19:42

Rates of adverse reactions in life that I can think of, and if I find the numbers/ facts I will post it, if not, left blank for someone to fill

- vaccination and serious reaction not causing death:
- vaccination and serious reaction causing death:
- sun and skin cancer: people still go to the sun
- smoking and lung (insert any other type you can think of) cancer:
- sexual transmission of HPV and cervical cancer/throat cancer:
- risk of suicide from antidepressants: being debated
- long haul flying and blood clots:
- dying while driving in NZ:
- reaction to food/bees/metals/pollens/wool
- too much alcohol
- too much food/too little food
- too little exercise/too much exercise:
- sexual intercourse and heart attack:
- brain inflammation from chicken pox: 1/10000
- brain inflammation from measles: 1/1000
- death from influenza
- death from being pregnant or giving birth in NZ: 1/3300
- death from radiation from CT scan: note we do a lot less than say, Australia, not only to save money but to reduce radiation. who says doctors don't care
- might post more when I think of them

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#1282472 13-Apr-2015 19:58

by the way, if you want to search any reactions on any medicine, go to www.medsafe.govt.nz; before it is authorised for use by the FDA/TGA/etc, all medicines are required to be tested on humans and generally the medicine is given to normal people and compared to sugar pills given to other normal people and the rates of reactions collected and compared. because, if you give someone a sugar pill, hey they can get headaches, tummy pain, vomiting, collapse, fainting, death, anything - you name it, some people will report it

table 2 is found in this document of all the reported adverse events of vaccines between 2005-2009. note that some events attributed to a vaccine may not be due to the vaccine, and some events may not have be reported https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/topic_sheets/adverse-event-summary.pdf

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#1282480 13-Apr-2015 20:10

Thanks for posting that, the MOH info I posted was from there, and that is the Table 2 that was requested.

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#1282501 13-Apr-2015 20:48

NZtechfreak: Thanks for posting that, the MOH info I posted was from there, and that is the Table 2 that was requested.

These are statistics for all of New Zealand over a four-year period, and lump together reported adverse reactions to all vaccines.

The worst case scenario is that there were 174 major ("serious"*) reactions to 1,900.000 doses of vaccine.

This works out as an incidence of major reactions of 1 in 10,919 doses (a 0.0009% risk)

* The definition of "serious" is based on international criteria:

one or more of the following:

hospitalisation (or prolonged hospitalisation) of the patient
a life threatening event
persisting disability of the patient
intervention required to prevent permanent impairment
death of the patient.

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#1282506 13-Apr-2015 20:52

less than dying while giving birth!

found an updated document see page 101 http://www.hqsc.govt.nz/assets/PMMRC/Publications/Seventh-PMMRC-Report-FINAL-June-2013.pdf

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#1282507 13-Apr-2015 20:52

This is actually for the middle class, as they are the ones most likely to be anti-vaxxers.. It's taking their "family tax benefit" equivalent off them... It's not punishing the poor at all. It's waking up the middle class mummies that drive SUVs, drink lattes and spend all day on facebook.

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#1282512 13-Apr-2015 21:00

I'd be willing to bet that there are more adverse reactions to peanuts than vaccinations.

NZtechfreak

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#1282524 13-Apr-2015 21:21

Interesting that looking further into the 'serious' reactions reveals the majority (132) of the 174 cases were hospital admissions, and in 40% of those the reason for admission was fever or injection site reactions.

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#1282526 13-Apr-2015 21:24

both of which are normal and a sign of immunity being formed

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#1282559 13-Apr-2015 22:53

I'm all in favour of vaccinations, and of strongly encouraging people to have them.

I also don't buy much of the rhetoric from the anti-vaxxers, and class most of them as plain nuts - up there with the chemtrailers, homeopaths and aura-massagers. I also think that evaluating risk vs benefit is a very complex thing, and that most people can't do a job that is remotely as good as the Government's pros at Medsafe. Rather than trying to be amateur pharmaceutical analysts, Medsafe should be trusted the same way as we trust airlines and the CAA to make sure planes are airworthy, and engineers to make sure lifts don't kill us. And it's ludicrous to suggest that Medsafe have been brought off - thankfully in this country the public service doesn't work that way.

Moreover, if a person/child is unvaccinated and poses a material risk to others, then I have no issue with childcare centres or schools refusing to enrol them.

However, I get uneasy at using outright compulsion to make people accept medical treatment that they don't want. Essentially, forcing unwanted medical treatment on someone is assault. The bar for doing so should be set very, very, very high - either where they are certified as mentally incompetent to make their own decisions, or where they pose a severe hazard to others (eg an untreated TB patient who is demonstrably infecting others).

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#1282571 13-Apr-2015 23:24

nunz:
old3eyes:
Dairyxox: I'm not claiming to be more qualified, I'm claiming to be most the most interested in my offspring's well-being.
I'm all about making an informed decision

I refuse to trust any qualified professional at face value. Who knows what payoffs they get. Think for yourself, question authority.

I'm not worried about the old school vaccinations, but the new ones. Don't want my kids to be guinea pigs.

Ok if you don't want your kids jabed and they get sick because of it you should pay the full cost of their medical care and not the taxpayer..

Okay, if you GET your kids jabbed and they get sick because of it you should pay the full cost of their medical care and not the taxpayer.???

35000 reported adverse affects to vaccines in the USA last year and possibly up to 700 000 adverse affects, mostly not reported - according to the CDC and FDA

There are 318m people in the USA
23-25% of them are under 20 = 80m
Assuming a standard age spread (which is incorrect as there are more under 16 as a percentage than under 20)
remove under 5s and over 15s to give us school age kids in the 5-15 age bracket (innoculation age) =40 million

Around 1 to 2% will have an adverse reaction to vaccination.

If vaccination is also on kids under 5 then the figure goes down to 0.6 to 1.5% will have an adverse reaction.

Some of those reactions will include death or non recovery( approx 7/35 = 20% of all adverse reactions)

Which equates to 60million (0-15 years), * 0.8% (median figure) * 20% =
960 000 adverse reactions with permanent / long term effect or death possible and

48 000 reported adverse reactions per year with LONG TERM EFFECT, PERMANENT EFFECT OR DEATH

Compare that figure to deaths from what we are vaccinated against - it makes for an interesting fiscal comparison when you realise long term effects mulitply with each years LTEs adding onto the cost of previous years LTES support and maintenance.

/me sighs.

I seriously doubt the voracity of those numbers. I know hundreds of people, my wife knows more, not one of them has had a reaction to it. Regardless, how many of those kids would have adverse affects or death if they AREN'T immunized?

I was speaking to my wife about this topic tonight, she stated categorically in her 3 year career at Starship she had never seen a kid admitted for immunization related issues. At her GP practice they immunize 15-20 kids a DAY and she has never had a kid back with a related
illness. I even got my wife to call 5 of her GP friends to ask them, and not a single one could recall a single instance. 1-2% just isn't happening in NZ.

On the other hand she OFTEN saw kids being treated for the diseases that immunization prevent like whooping cough, measles etc. She said one night she was working intensive care and they had 4 kids in AT THE SAME time, on breathing life support.

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#1282577 14-Apr-2015 00:21

I think the only valid objection to vaccines should be on scientific grounds.

But, there appear to be none.

Without vaccines, our life expectancy would probably be around 40 - like around 1910 in the US.

Use vaccines... It works!

Do I approve of Tony Abbot's new policy --- No!

First, he exempts people on religious grounds.

I think this should have been resolved by now.. Deny a child a blood transfusion on religious grounds? I think not!

But, the main point is, if it is such a good idea, then shouldn't he force it on ALL Australians?

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#1282578 14-Apr-2015 00:29

The figures posted there are rubbish, this has already been established.

In terms of vaccine-related complications, I have seen several. A delayed hypersensitivity reaction (a rash, self-limited), a few local reactions to the four year immunisations, which are amongst the most common adverse events but also ultimately self-limited. Considering vaccine-related events will include even the most minor of things like a fever, I would surprised if we didn't reach the 1-2% figure that is quoted to be honest (I wonder whether the other GPs are automatically discounting the more trivial things). The vast, vast, majority of these are minor.

My experience of working in the department at Starship was similar to your wife's, we would quite often see children with vaccine preventable illnesses. I recall personally seeing a child with tetanus, terrible disease, another with haemophilus cellulitis, and quite a number with whooping cough. The worst of course were young babies, too young to be vaccinated catching whooping cough off older unvaccinated people. They often end up incubated in ICU, and with complications like bowel prolapses from the sustained coughing (some die too, but fortunately none that I had been involved in). The measles outbreaks were after my time there, but I have seen this as a GP. Measles is a disease I really should not have ever seen in the course of my career, given the long term presence of a very effective vaccination.

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#1282579 14-Apr-2015 00:34

anyone remember polio?

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