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#1282585 14-Apr-2015 01:02

joker97: anyone remember polio?

I do recall occasionally (week or two) seeing young people walking around with braces on their legs, with one leg a lot shorter than the other.

We don't see that anymore.

My mother, when she was young, went on holiday (with brother) to visit relatives.. Polio outbreak and couldn't return home for full school term.

A few decades ago, Polio was a horror.

Fred99

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#1282603 14-Apr-2015 06:49

Polio "broke the rules". Rather than being an infectious "crowd" disease mainly inflicting the poor, the debauched, polio seemed to selectively target the well-to-do, the teenage/ young adult children of good clean living folks. No doubt that was seen by some as a major upset to the natural order of things - and contributed to the panic.
The reason was that the infection had been an endemic (very) early childhood disease. mild or asymptomatic, most of the population was immune because they'd already had it. It became a big problem due to improved sanitation.

MikeB4

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#1282617 14-Apr-2015 07:20

The Australian decision and the calls to have non vaccinated children barred from daycare and schools affects the innocent badly and unjusdtly. After all a 3 or 4 year old does not make the decision and a 3 or 4 year old cannot take themselves to a doctor and ask them to vaccinate them.
The answer is education after all when was the last time we saw adv etc promoting vaccination other the Flu jabs?

Geese

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#1282621 14-Apr-2015 07:51

joker97: Rates of adverse reactions in life that I can think of, and if I find the numbers/ facts I will post it, if not, left blank for someone to fill:

- brain inflammation from chicken pox: 1/10000

I guess vast majority get chickenpox as a child, and with what I'm about to say, I have only seen 3 children with chickenpox, and they had very few spots (relative) and not that unwell.

But I somehow did not get it at school. But at age 34, 3 days before being due to leave for my first overseas holiday (10 days in Hollywood), I contracted it.

I've never been so sick in all my life, the fever and malaise was unreal. When I was recovering, my temperature was measured by doctor to be 39.5, at the peak it would have been higher overnight. I was covered everywhere except below knees, and hands. By everywhere, I mean places like in the mouth, nose, ears, and a few other places you definitely don't want them. It hammered me so bad I couldn't go overseas, nor to work for 2 weeks. Adults get it far worse than children, and males worse than females. I am now scarred in various places as a permanent reminder of this.

After I was better I found I could have had a vaccine. $80 I think? I would have paid $800 to not get sick, and even at $2000 would have been cheaper than the money lost by not being fully compensated by travel insurance. I think if a child doesn't naturally catch chickenpox at school, then the parents need to be proactive to get kid/s vaccinated as that was a pretty scary week for me.

old3eyes

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#1282628 14-Apr-2015 08:22

KiwiNZ: The Australian decision and the calls to have non vaccinated children barred from daycare and schools affects the innocent badly and unjusdtly. After all a 3 or 4 year old does not make the decision and a 3 or 4 year old cannot take themselves to a doctor and ask them to vaccinate them.
The answer is education after all when was the last time we saw adv etc promoting vaccination other the Flu jabs?

Well if the kids can't go to school then it's the parents fault. This should be adopted here as well but extended to every one.

Regards,

Old3eyes

MikeB4

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#1282664 14-Apr-2015 08:52

old3eyes:
KiwiNZ: The Australian decision and the calls to have non vaccinated children barred from daycare and schools affects the innocent badly and unjusdtly. After all a 3 or 4 year old does not make the decision and a 3 or 4 year old cannot take themselves to a doctor and ask them to vaccinate them.
The answer is education after all when was the last time we saw adv etc promoting vaccination other the Flu jabs?

Well if the kids can't go to school then it's the parents fault. This should be adopted here as well but extended to every one.

My point is its not the child's fault you are punishing the innocent and those powerless to change it, that is unfair and unjust.

jonathan18

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#1282673 14-Apr-2015 09:02

Has anyone listened to an interview Kim Hill did back in February with the author of a book on the history of immunity and vaccination? Very interesting listening, and available here: http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/20166344/eula-biss-immunity-and-vaccination

I'd agree the growing problem appears to be with the middle class making decisions about the supposed risks to their precious children of receiving vaccinations. As the interview above shows, very few understand how immunity within a wider community works, so the decisions these people are making are terribly ill-informed as well as self-centred in the extreme. Any parent considering not immunising their children should be required to read such material.

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MikeB4

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#1282676 14-Apr-2015 09:06

The NZ Government say the immunisation rate in NZ is at 94% and their target is 95% so it is not a huge problem here. The government instead of giving money to the likes of Americas Cup they could use it for an education programme to counter the anti-vaccination propaganda.

Sideface

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#1282736 14-Apr-2015 10:36

NZtechfreak: ... The worst of course were young babies, too young to be vaccinated catching whooping cough off older unvaccinated people. They often end up incubated in ICU, and with complications like bowel prolapses from the sustained coughing (some die too, but fortunately none that I had been involved in). ...

The two whooping cough deaths that I witnessed in the 1970s were both babies in this situation. (see my earlier post)

They died despite state-of-the-art medical care in a wealthy country with an excellent health service.

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Geektastic

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#1282738 14-Apr-2015 10:42

KiwiNZ:
old3eyes:
KiwiNZ: The Australian decision and the calls to have non vaccinated children barred from daycare and schools affects the innocent badly and unjusdtly. After all a 3 or 4 year old does not make the decision and a 3 or 4 year old cannot take themselves to a doctor and ask them to vaccinate them.
The answer is education after all when was the last time we saw adv etc promoting vaccination other the Flu jabs?

Well if the kids can't go to school then it's the parents fault. This should be adopted here as well but extended to every one.

My point is its not the child's fault you are punishing the innocent and those powerless to change it, that is unfair and unjust.

Less so than allowing potentially infectious children to attend or to be exposed to things against which they have not been vaccinated.

networkn

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#1282748 14-Apr-2015 10:45

KiwiNZ: The NZ Government say the immunisation rate in NZ is at 94% and their target is 95% so it is not a huge problem here. The government instead of giving money to the likes of Americas Cup they could use it for an education programme to counter the anti-vaccination propaganda.

Anti Vax people are not going to listen to the Government, as most of them believe that the "problem" is Government sponsored.

If 10,000 Doctors, Scientists and other fact based representation doesn't put a dent in your thinking, nothing will, except seeing your kid lying in a hospital bed near death from a preventable disease.

The big problem is that the diseases are so rare now that people don't have the reality to compare their "facts" with.

nunz

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#1282750 14-Apr-2015 10:49

NZtechfreak:
nunz: Some of those reactions will include death or non recovery( approx 7/35 = 20% of all adverse reactions)

Ah, I think this is where your worked example falls down - that figure is extraordinarily high and not reflective of reality at all. Death and non-recovery make up a tiny fraction of all adverse reactions, certainly not 20%. If that figure was 7/35,000 that would sound more plausible to me. Jesus, if it was 20% we'd have kids dying every week from vaccinations in NZ, which would certainly make the news regularly.

EDIT: Fact checking - 2014 had 1737 reports of serious adverse events of the kind you describe - that is for all vaccinations in the States (a much larger group than you postulated would result in 48,000 of these events). Worth also pointing out that the monitoring that produces these reports does not verify any causal link to the vaccination in question, in the words of the CDC themselves "When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event."

Good catch I swapped the 1 and 7. however even at 1/7 of my number incorrectly derieved that is a lot of damaged kids. The anti vaccine people can be very radical but to write off parental concern as hogwash, which is what Penn & Teller do is also wrong. P & T carefully avoid any mention of side affects or stats that people like the CDC have put out.

In this forum we have a very small statistical sample yet we have 1 parent whose child was severely affected, almost to the point of dying. Coincidence? Maybe but statistically could point to a bigger issue that pro-vaccinators gloss over.

It takes one heck of a lot of courage for that parent to let his / her child be re-vaccinated even with a weaker dose and more courage again to let the other kids get vaccinated. Not disparaging non-parents - I used to be one - but you really don't know unless you have been there. It's different to watching your spouse, friends, parents or siblings die or get hurt - it really tears you up in ways you don't expect.

Re- cause and effect - agreed however that is balanced by them also stating that they believe only 5% of adverse reactions are reported. That would mean 20 x 1737 which cones out at 34 740 and not all of those would fail to be vaccine caused. To balance that out - it is very likely that severe adverse effects are more highly reported than non-severe effects so we would have to agree that there are somewhere between 1737 and around 34 740

nunz

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#1282753 14-Apr-2015 10:53

Sideface:
nunz: ... from the health.govt.nz site:

The HPV immunisation is free for girls and young women up to their 20th birthday. It is free for non-residents who are under the age of 16 and are living in New Zealand for nine months or more. It is available through participating schools or from family doctors, local health centres and some Family Planning clinics.

All girls who are in year 8 at school are offered the vaccine either through a school-based immunisation programme or through their family doctor if a school programme is not available.
Women over the age of 20 can still have the vaccine, but they will need to pay for it.
The HPV Immunisation Programme aims to protect young women from HPV infection and the risk of developing cervical cancer and a range of other HPV diseases later in life. Currently, around 150 women are diagnosed with cervical cancer and 50 women die from it each year in New Zealand.

also from www.health.govt.nz:

Why should girls be immunised at 12 to 13 years of age?

The HPV vaccine only prevents against HPV infection, it does not treat infection. Therefore, for best protection girls need to be immunised before they are likely to be exposed to HPV, which means before they start having any sexual contact. There is also good evidence that younger girls develop a stronger immune response from the vaccine compared to older girls.

This vaccine is expensive for adults who do not qualify for the government subsidy.

Counter argumet - If you want to have risky sex then it is up to you take on the responsibility that risky sex involved - male and female. The vaccine is effective in adults. what is more effective is a condom nad it also stops clymidia <sp> and a host of other issues such as HIV and some hepatitis.

But this is off topic :) The reall issue is bigotry and discrimination that the govt is suggesting.

networkn

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#1282754 14-Apr-2015 10:54

nunz:
NZtechfreak:
nunz: Some of those reactions will include death or non recovery( approx 7/35 = 20% of all adverse reactions)

Ah, I think this is where your worked example falls down - that figure is extraordinarily high and not reflective of reality at all. Death and non-recovery make up a tiny fraction of all adverse reactions, certainly not 20%. If that figure was 7/35,000 that would sound more plausible to me. Jesus, if it was 20% we'd have kids dying every week from vaccinations in NZ, which would certainly make the news regularly.

EDIT: Fact checking - 2014 had 1737 reports of serious adverse events of the kind you describe - that is for all vaccinations in the States (a much larger group than you postulated would result in 48,000 of these events). Worth also pointing out that the monitoring that produces these reports does not verify any causal link to the vaccination in question, in the words of the CDC themselves "When evaluating data from VAERS, it is important to note that for any reported event, no cause-and-effect relationship has been established. Reports of all possible associations between vaccines and adverse events (possible side effects) are filed in VAERS. Therefore, VAERS collects data on any adverse event following vaccination, be it coincidental or truly caused by a vaccine. The report of an adverse event to VAERS is not documentation that a vaccine caused the event."

Good catch I swapped the 1 and 7. however even at 1/7 of my number incorrectly derieved that is a lot of damaged kids. The anti vaccine people can be very radical but to write off parental concern as hogwash, which is what Penn & Teller do is also wrong. P & T carefully avoid any mention of side affects or stats that people like the CDC have put out.

In this forum we have a very small statistical sample yet we have 1 parent whose child was severely affected, almost to the point of dying. Coincidence? Maybe but statistically could point to a bigger issue that pro-vaccinators gloss over.

It takes one heck of a lot of courage for that parent to let his / her child be re-vaccinated even with a weaker dose and more courage again to let the other kids get vaccinated. Not disparaging non-parents - I used to be one - but you really don't know unless you have been there. It's different to watching your spouse, friends, parents or siblings die or get hurt - it really tears you up in ways you don't expect.

Re- cause and effect - agreed however that is balanced by them also stating that they believe only 5% of adverse reactions are reported. That would mean 20 x 1737 which cones out at 34 740 and not all of those would fail to be vaccine caused. To balance that out - it is very likely that severe adverse effects are more highly reported than non-severe effects so we would have to agree that there are somewhere between 1737 and around 34 740

You aren't doing the math properly still, however I am not going to argue that with you.

Bottom line, even if the number was 34,000 of serious problems (and I don't believe the numbers to be right or the definition of serious to be truly serious), how many kids would be dead or VERY VERY sick WITHOUT them.

Don't forget you aren't just protecting YOUR kids, you are protecting the kids who CAN'T truly be given these vaccinations, by way of herd immunisation.

nunz

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#1282759 14-Apr-2015 11:01

joker97:
nunz:
richms: IMO the govts job is to run the most affordable healthcare system possible. If getting a jab for all reduces the overall cost of the system then do it. People are too wound up about individual rights forgetting that they are part of a society.

IMHO it is the govts job is to run the most affordable healthcare system possible. If NOT getting a jab for all reduces the overall cost of the system then do it. People are too wound up about THE LATEST SCARES AND FADS forgetting that they have a brain and should use it.

if only it were that simple. people who think they know stuff actually don't know stuff.

your statement already shows that. how can it be cheaper for the govt not to vaccinate - does anyone think for ONE SECOND that governments will do something that is more expensive, ie enforce vaccination?

i propose that vaccinating everyone is cheaper for the govt, if there is no other reason for doing it than laughing at protestors' kids getting scarred for life.

Again - I am not arguing against vaccination - I am primarily arguing against the discrimination the govts suggestion entails.

Secondly I am not arguing for no vaccination - but certainly removing the vaccinations that are not required such as HPV.

As an example of using your brain - Education reduced the incidences of HIV / Hepititus world wide - no vaccine required. When I was young there was an advert about how when you have sex with one person you have sex with all their partners potential diseases. 35 years later i still remember it.

TB is another good case in point. TB was almost eradicated in NZ as an educationally driven policyy was put in place which discouraged spitting - one of the major vectors for transmission. Now we have the Crusadaers, Blues, Sharks and every other team spitting and hawking all over the place. Not only is it gross but TB is on the rise again - and spitting has become popular, not just amongst immigrant asians where the social norm doesn't condem spitting in public but amongst all races.

If Tb gets more prevelent we will probably see them introduce a vaccine program for it - which would not be required as it can be eradicated at a social level like it was before - ditto HPV and other non-essential vaccines which would get my dole removed if I was on the dole in aus and they brought in this policy.

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