No incentive to work

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#1480697 28-Jan-2016 15:10

Geektastic:
MikeB4:
Rikkitic:

I guess all those bankers with their multi-million dollar bonuses who led us into the abyss and cost many genuinely hard-working people their jobs were just rare talents deserving of disproportionate compensation. I wonder what they would have done to the world if they had only been paid ordinary salaries?

The Financial sector was an example of incredible ineptitude and talented criminal activity mixed with greed. They are also like demented reef fish. The global crises was clear evidence that the industry should be regulated.

Ah but quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

We have organisations in NZ that do a reasonable job eg SFO, RBNZ, . The regulation of the Banking Sector has worked well here

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#1480708 28-Jan-2016 15:37

MikeB4:
Geektastic:

MikeB4:
Rikkitic:

I guess all those bankers with their multi-million dollar bonuses who led us into the abyss and cost many genuinely hard-working people their jobs were just rare talents deserving of disproportionate compensation. I wonder what they would have done to the world if they had only been paid ordinary salaries?

The Financial sector was an example of incredible ineptitude and talented criminal activity mixed with greed. They are also like demented reef fish. The global crises was clear evidence that the industry should be regulated.

Ah but quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

We have organisations in NZ that do a reasonable job eg SFO, RBNZ, . The regulation of the Banking Sector has worked well here

You mean like all these NZ Finance companies http://www.interest.co.nz/saving/deep-freeze-list

Over 9 Billion from over 240,000 investors.

Never mind how the tax payer got screwed with SCF.

Geektastic

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#1480727 28-Jan-2016 16:29

sir1963:

MikeB4:
Geektastic:

MikeB4:
Rikkitic:

I guess all those bankers with their multi-million dollar bonuses who led us into the abyss and cost many genuinely hard-working people their jobs were just rare talents deserving of disproportionate compensation. I wonder what they would have done to the world if they had only been paid ordinary salaries?

The Financial sector was an example of incredible ineptitude and talented criminal activity mixed with greed. They are also like demented reef fish. The global crises was clear evidence that the industry should be regulated.

Ah but quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

We have organisations in NZ that do a reasonable job eg SFO, RBNZ, . The regulation of the Banking Sector has worked well here

You mean like all these NZ Finance companies http://www.interest.co.nz/saving/deep-freeze-list

Over 9 Billion from over 240,000 investors.

Never mind how the tax payer got screwed with SCF.

Indeed....

Geektastic

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#1480750 28-Jan-2016 16:38

sir1963:

Geektastic:

sir1963:

Geektastic:

Brendan:

JimmyH:

sir1963:

"Hard Work" is grossly misused , try seeing how many managers can cope with a day in a coal mine, digging post holes, lifting the elderly. There are a LOT of jobs that are VERY hard, but pay minimum wage.

Again, you need to understand economic value. As I have tried to point out before, value is extrinsic not intrinsic, and markets set prices at the margin.

Top grade managerial talent and experience, capable of running say a top-50 company, is very, very scarce. Hence the market rate is high.

Semi-skilled young people with strong backs capable of swinging a shovel are relatively abundant, as are people capable of stitching the soles onto shoes (which can also be outsourced to pretty much anywhere in the world), and hence the market rates for people with these skills are comparatively low. They pay minimum wage because that's as low as the price is legally allowed to fall, and the excess supply of low-skill labour results in unemployment instead.

It is pretty much irrelevant how "hard" you consider the two jobs are, or whether you consider one is more socially worthy than the other. That's not how things work.

A very pretty argument until you look at the actual facts on the ground.

"Top grade managerial talent", lol, recent examples of the "top grade" make it look like "first grade".

If your argument held water, and it does not, you would find the top scientists, researchers and inventors would be the most highly rewarded people on the planet. Nikola Tesla, or his estate, would be worth a trillion dollars. Because under your argument, his talents were exceeding rare and the economic benefits of his genius are felt in every wire in every country of the world. Instead, he died a pauper.

And there are countless other examples. Infact, it is typical for world changing inventions to be TAKEN from the inventor and to profit one on your "rare managerial talents". I call it parasitical. And it makes a lie of your assertion.

sir1963:

The US top tax rate from about 1930-mid 1960's was over 90%

It did not discourage people from working harder/longer

Personally, although I don't earn huge sums, I know what my response would be if you put my tax rate to 90%. It wouldn't discourage me from working harder or longer.

It would, however, encourage me to nostalgically look in on NZ online news from time to time to see how the country was doing, from whatever country I had emigrated to. You wouldn't get more money from me for your pet causes, in fact you would go from whatever I pay now to zero. It would be good for Aussie and the UK though, as they would pick up a lot of skilled labour (business owners, plumbers, electricians, doctors, teachers, lawyers, actors, etc) as they fled en masse.

The labour market is global. You can't make a tax change like that without consequences.

And yet there are countries with very high tax rates in the range of what has been said, and they have no problem with retaining rich people. The wealthy flock to them. As has been stated, the 1920's in the USA was one such, and it was the place to be at the time. The Rockerfellers and Hughes we not running off to take their millions to europe or asia, and neither would the Gates nor Buffets today.

No, your argument is simply a transparent attempt to justify the status quo.

You might want to go and look at just how poor the poor were in the glorious 20's and 30's when they were resorting to selling their children for food money...! More than 60% of Americans in the 20's were living below the poverty line.

You mean the great depression.Where as the 1950/s and 60s has the largest growth inspire of the high taxes. The Middle classes boomed.

That's more complex than taxes. At least in the USA. In the 50's and 60's, America found itself gifted with vast industrial capability as a result of WW2. That capability was re-purposed into a booming economy not really seen since. The USA had the advantage of not having suffered the Blitz or land conflict like Europe, which destroyed huge amounts of industrial capability which meant the USA was in a unique position to claim market dominance aided and abetted by the decline of the British Empire in the same period. They lent a lot to the UK and in fact the last part of the Marshall Plan was repaid to the USA by Margaret Thatcher, it was that recent.

America historically has also had it's high rate of tax cut in much higher up the scale - at the moment, you don't pay 39% until you hit about US$415,000. You can also deduct your mortgage costs, property taxes and so on from your gross salary before you calculate tax. Thus, Americans have always been able to earn more before serious taxes begin: for example the NZ highest rate would not be paid in the USA until you earned over NZ$200,000. Up to US$100,000 you are paying no more than 25% so they tax their poor and middle classes somewhat less than we do although they forgo a national health service which is directly comparable.

They also lack a universal pension, maternity leave, paid holidays, ACC.

Medical expenses cost more than twice as much as in NZ with no better outcomes.

The infrastructure is degrading, roads, bridges, dams, schools, power grid.

The USA used to make up about 60% of the worlds GDP, nows its about 40% and falling (because China, India, Brazil etc economies are growing)

Chinas economy will soon be bigger than the US (Hence the PPTA which was more about shoring up the US economy and influence than anything and why those 3 countries are excluded)

Depends. My brother lives there and he certainly gets paid leave and his partner got maternity leave. Also, it's not as if NZ is exactly world class in terms of provision of either of those things. We have no private pension schemes here with tax free saving status either - which is partly why so many Kiwis put all their money in houses, causing other problems we all know about.

Yes some other things cost more - but if you keep more of your own money (and what bigger incentive to work is there than that?) you can provide more for yourself in whatever way seems best for you. Many other things cost a lot less - fuel being a number one item on that list and fuel costs of course affect the cost of just about everything else.

MikeB4

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#1480765 28-Jan-2016 17:06

sir1963:
MikeB4:
Geektastic:

MikeB4:
Rikkitic:

I guess all those bankers with their multi-million dollar bonuses who led us into the abyss and cost many genuinely hard-working people their jobs were just rare talents deserving of disproportionate compensation. I wonder what they would have done to the world if they had only been paid ordinary salaries?

The Financial sector was an example of incredible ineptitude and talented criminal activity mixed with greed. They are also like demented reef fish. The global crises was clear evidence that the industry should be regulated.

Ah but quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

We have organisations in NZ that do a reasonable job eg SFO, RBNZ, . The regulation of the Banking Sector has worked well here

You mean like all these NZ Finance companies http://www.interest.co.nz/saving/deep-freeze-list

Over 9 Billion from over 240,000 investors.

Never mind how the tax payer got screwed with SCF.

I did say the Banking regulation is well done, the finance sector needs regulation

MikeB4

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#1480766 28-Jan-2016 17:09

The biggest barrier and often deal breaker for Sole parents retuning to the paid workforce is childcare costs.

mudguard

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#1480786 28-Jan-2016 17:41

Is there a limit to quoted posts? It was mentioned on the previous page yet there are still enormous muliti-quote posts.
Lots of scrolling for very little reading.

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Brendan

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#1480974 28-Jan-2016 23:56

Geektastic:

You might want to go and look at just how poor the poor were in the glorious 20's and 30's when they were resorting to selling their children for food money...! More than 60% of Americans in the 20's were living below the poverty line.

Yes, it was quite bad - but no where near as bad as the "Glorious days of the Victorian Workhouse for the Poor".

I think you need to have a little think Marcus.

Geektastic

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#1480979 29-Jan-2016 00:12

mudguard: Is there a limit to quoted posts? It was mentioned on the previous page yet there are still enormous muliti-quote posts.
Lots of scrolling for very little reading.

Make the system easier to use and I am sure it will stop. The forum software seems a bit long in the tooth in that respect compared to more recent examples I have seen.

Every time I try and reduce quotes all I end up with is posts that won't work due to some form of incorrect code or something. If it worked like a word processor and you could just delete what you did not want, it would be easier.

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#1480997 29-Jan-2016 06:59

MikeB4: The biggest barrier and often deal breaker for Sole parents retuning to the paid workforce is childcare costs.

QFT

I 100% agree with this. Even with so many hours free child care it is still too expensive.

Geektastic

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#1481570 29-Jan-2016 23:21

dickytim:

MikeB4: The biggest barrier and often deal breaker for Sole parents retuning to the paid workforce is childcare costs.

QFT

I 100% agree with this. Even with so many hours free child care it is still too expensive.

I presume this is the net result of all the people who used to look after their children, no longer wanting to be at home to look after their children?

MikeB4

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#1481597 30-Jan-2016 07:39

Geektastic:
dickytim:

MikeB4: The biggest barrier and often deal breaker for Sole parents retuning to the paid workforce is childcare costs.

QFT

I 100% agree with this. Even with so many hours free child care it is still too expensive.

I presume this is the net result of all the people who used to look after their children, no longer wanting to be at home to look after their children?

Yes but double income can pay for it, $15 per hour cannot. It's simple mathematics.

sir1963

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#1481675 30-Jan-2016 10:42

Geektastic:

dickytim:

MikeB4: The biggest barrier and often deal breaker for Sole parents retuning to the paid workforce is childcare costs.

QFT

I 100% agree with this. Even with so many hours free child care it is still too expensive.

I presume this is the net result of all the people who used to look after their children, no longer wanting to be at home to look after their children?

Or its the result of economic policy where by one wage for most families is not enough. Where jobs are part time, or even zero hours so they need to have multiple part time jobs including weekends.

Then we get people bitching about increased crime and the break down of the family unit.

Batman

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#1481706 30-Jan-2016 12:16

In many developed countries, childcare costs are heavily rebated.

In this country, you're on your own. Childcare costs more than parent's hourly wage, why work.

Handle9

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#1481708 30-Jan-2016 12:23

joker97:
In many developed countries, childcare costs are heavily rebated.

In this country, you're on your own. Childcare costs more than parent's hourly wage, why work.

Not quite true. Child care costs are quite reasonable once the child turns three as the government subsidy kicks in. Saying that about 45% of my wife's income goes to pay for childcare for our 4 year and 1 year old girls.

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