Unsure whether to upgrade from ADSL (200GB) to VDSL (Uncapped)

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › Unsure whether to upgrade from ADSL (200GB) to VDSL (Uncapped)

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55 posts

Master Geek

#1097255 28-Jul-2014 17:19

FireEngine:
Jase2985: you say you removed all the computers off wifi, except your one, are you doing the above tests over wifi?

if so that explains your results, test over ethernet. never try to test your connection over wifi, its unreliable and you will hardly ever see line speed unless you have the latest and greatest wifi modem

also post up your current modem stats.

Just to add to this excellent point is that there could be other networks interfering with your WiFi, or other radio sources generally so yes, please test only over ethernet, WiFi performance <will> be slower and much more variable. If you have several devices connected they will compete for WiFi bandwidth before they get a chance to compete for line bandwidth.

@Jase2985 - Yes that is correct I did do the test over wifi... however I disagree with this statement:

if so that explains your results, test over ethernet. never try to test your connection over wifi, its unreliable and you will hardly ever see line speed unless you have the latest and greatest wifi modem

.
I did this for 2 reasons:

1. being that when I was on ADSL, I had the exact same setup as I do now and was downloading over wifi, with 2 more devices connected using it at the same time, and I STILL got a constant maximum available download speed to me of 1.1MB/s from my source. And now, even with the other wireless devices removed, it varied greatly.

2. The download speed difference between ethernet and wifi is negligible. I have tested both and they varied by 1mbps (if that) and I cant see that causing such a noticeable drop in download speed.

I wanted to keep as many variables as constant as possible and as close to my previous setup (ADSL) so that I would get the most accurate results.

test over ethernet

For arguments sake, lets say this fixes the problem. I.e. it gives me my maximum constant VDSL download speed of ~2.7MB/s and doesn't drop at all... I now have to plug my computer into the modem to achieve this?? That unfortunately defeats the whole purpose of getting VDSL for the speed it offered as well as the ability of wifi... If it was, quote "unreliable and you will hardly ever see line speed", then I dont think NetCom(mumication?) would have put this feature (wifi) into their modems that you provide for your VDSL/UFB plans.

Please note that Im not not taking a dig at what you or FireEngine have recommended, but rather the whole concept of wifi being worse than ethernet.. in same cases, yes, however, I dont think this is one of those cases as I never had this issue with the ADSL...

Also, were you wanting a screenshot of the actual stats displayed under "Statistics" on the modem? Or rather the info under the "Device Info" section?

@FireEngine - I used an app called Wifi Analyzer on my smartphone which provides a simple list of all the available wifi networks in range as well as which channel they are on, going on this it then also recommends which channel is best for your wifi and logic would tell you to set it to a channel that is not in use/used less of the first isnt an option. I have done so, the next closest channel to mine is 11. Also again never had this issue with the ADSL modem/wifi setup and download speeds dropping.

If you have several devices connected they will compete for WiFi bandwidth before they get a chance to compete for line bandwidth.

Again at the time I did the test, all wireless devices were removed/turned off, except the one I was using to download.

FireEngine

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#1097260 28-Jul-2014 17:36

I think the important point is that WiFi is subject to more variability as a transmission technology, to test properly you need to eliminate that variability, is isn't correct to say you eliminate a variable by keeping it, a variable is a variable.

WiFi networks work in a complex RF environment, subject to old fridges turning off/on, location of equipment changing, orientation of antennae changing et al. Ethernet cable is ethernet cable, pretty much the whole industry supports throughput testing by ethernet cable and not via WiFi for these reasons.

Regards FireEngine

User123456

55 posts

Master Geek

#1097270 28-Jul-2014 17:52

FireEngine: I think the important point is that WiFi is subject to more variability as a transmission technology, to test properly you need to eliminate that variability, is isn't correct to say you eliminate a variable by keeping it, a variable is a variable.

WiFi networks work in a complex RF environment, subject to old fridges turning off/on, location of equipment changing, orientation of antennae changing et al. Ethernet cable is ethernet cable, pretty much the whole industry supports throughput testing by ethernet cable and not via WiFi for these reasons.

I agree, but then can you explain why I didn't suffer this speed dropping problem with my ADSL setup and while using the older iiNet modem? If there was as you say interference to consider.

FireEngine

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#1097277 28-Jul-2014 18:03

User123456: I agree, but then can you explain why I didn't suffer this speed dropping problem with my ADSL setup and while using the older iiNet modem? If there was as you say interference to consider.

Nope because I'm not there looking at your WiFi environment. Taking a sample of the environment with an App is fine but you would have to sample every time you had an issue to stand a chance of catching some transient channel interference, and an App is unlikely to pickup any other kinds of RF (power lines, local switching etc etc), perhaps someone else nearby changed their router etc etc.

But TBH the shortest, quickest and most certain way is to eliminate it as a variable by testing over ethernet.

Regards FireEngine

User123456

55 posts

Master Geek

#1097299 28-Jul-2014 18:28

FireEngine:
User123456: I agree, but then can you explain why I didn't suffer this speed dropping problem with my ADSL setup and while using the older iiNet modem? If there was as you say interference to consider.

Nope because I'm not there looking at your WiFi environment. Taking a sample of the environment with an App is fine but you would have to sample every time you had an issue to stand a chance of catching some transient channel interference, and an App is unlikely to pickup any other kinds of RF (power lines, local switching etc etc), perhaps someone else nearby changed their router etc etc.

But TBH the shortest, quickest and most certain way is to eliminate it as a variable by testing over ethernet.

Fair enough, though it is weird that its only happening now on the uncapped VDSL plan as opposed to the capped VDSL plan (granted that there may be some other factor involved..but I cant see what is at the moment) . And yes sorry, forgot to mention that in my previous reply, that I would be happy to test it through ethernet if you wanted me to. I will do this a little later tonight and post the results.

Jase2985

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#1097329 28-Jul-2014 18:40

test via ethernet and see what you get. then you will know if its a vdsl or a wifi problem. completly different ways to fault find.

wifi is a complimentary method next to Ethernet and should never be a replacement (paraphrasing sbiddle) it should never be used as a replacement.

the way wifi works and the inherent interferance you get leads to less than ideal wifi speeds in some cases.

i have a 54mbps vdsl connection and can only get 32mbps to my laptop via wifi. my modem is capible of 130mbps via wifi. ill never see that and if it want line speed i have to use ethernet.

have a look at other threads where people complain about there vdsl speeds and it turns out its wifi related, you will find heaps. one solution is use a powerline adapter to get the wired connection where you need to with out running extra cables.

i just think you need to do more reading or you have the wrong expectations when it comes to connection speed via wifi.

FireEngine

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#1097384 28-Jul-2014 19:35

User123456: though it is weird that its only happening now on the uncapped VDSL plan

Plan is irrelevant, we don't shape, throttle or limit any traffic on any plan.

Regards FireEngine

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hio77

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Lizard Networks

#1097432 28-Jul-2014 20:16

User123456:

Fair enough, though it is weird that its only happening now on the uncapped VDSL plan as opposed to the capped VDSL plan (granted that there may be some other factor involved..but I cant see what is at the moment) . And yes sorry, forgot to mention that in my previous reply, that I would be happy to test it through ethernet if you wanted me to. I will do this a little later tonight and post the results.

have you considered the possibility that a neighbour has moved in, or gotten a new router, which is sitting on the same channel as yours or an interfering channel causing degeneration in your wireless signal?

wireless is a conveyance feature and should NEVER be expected to preform equal to a cable.

#include <std_disclaimer>

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

User123456

55 posts

Master Geek

#1097572 29-Jul-2014 00:02

Jase2985: test via ethernet and see what you get. then you will know if its a vdsl or a wifi problem. completly different ways to fault find.

wifi is a complimentary method next to Ethernet and should never be a replacement (paraphrasing sbiddle) it should never be used as a replacement.

the way wifi works and the inherent interferance you get leads to less than ideal wifi speeds in some cases.

Alright, I will now do the test tomorrow afternoon sometime when I get home (got preoccupied this evening)

Jase2985: i have a 54mbps vdsl connection and can only get 32mbps to my laptop via wifi. my modem is capible of 130mbps via wifi. ill never see that and if it want line speed i have to use ethernet.

have a look at other threads where people complain about there vdsl speeds and it turns out its wifi related, you will find heaps. one solution is use a powerline adapter to get the wired connection where you need to with out running extra cables.

i just think you need to do more reading or you have the wrong expectations when it comes to connection speed via wifi.

Your first sentence strengthens my point, how come you are able to get at least get 32mbps over wifi?? I know this modem can support at least up to 24mpbs over wifi as that has been tested already... so this should be always be available (provided there are no issues with the line or there are more people on the home wifi or the service is down for example). I will have a look around at the other threads though as suggested. Again, the fact that I can get the near as speeds over wifi and ethernet, with the difference of 1mpbs, then I think its safe to say that running an ethernet cable wont fix much in this case...

FireEngine:
User123456: though it is weird that its only happening now on the uncapped VDSL (Edit: I meant ADSL here) plan

Plan is irrelevant, we don't shape, throttle or limit any traffic on any plan.

I remember this was mentioned earlier on in the thread. Thank you for stating to again though and reading between the lines ;). I will trust you on this.

hio77:
have you considered the possibility that a neighbour has moved in, or gotten a new router, which is sitting on the same channel as yours or an interfering channel causing degeneration in your wireless signal?

Yes I have, I addressed this similar question in the first post at the top of this page, but there have been no recent router changes (besides mine) and/or neighbours moved in. As for the channels, read below:

User123456: @FireEngine - I used an app called Wifi Analyzer on my smartphone which provides a simple list of all the available wifi networks in range as well as which channel they are on, going on this it then also recommends which channel is best for your wifi and logic would tell you to set it to a channel that is not in use/used less if the first isnt an option. I have done so, the next closest channel to mine is 11. Also again never had this issue with the ADSL modem/wifi setup and download speeds dropping.

hio77:
wireless is a conveyance feature and should NEVER be expected to preform equal to a cable.

I am not arguing that, and I dont expect it to be equal to a cable ;), however, I do expect it to provide a constant download of ~24mpbs as I know the modem supports, as when I do the speed test over wifi, the modem doesnt budge off 24mpbs when downloading, my line supports it (as it should) and that I achieved consistency with the older ADSL, granted not at 24mpbs, (it was 14mpbs) but a constant (also over wifi)...

hio77

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Lizard Networks

#1097575 29-Jul-2014 00:18

different modems, different client wlan adaptors will all differently perform differently in different environments.

i consistently get my 55mbit sync speeds, over wifi (2.5ghz 20mhz channel), but then i am an outlier. most will not see speeds like that over wireless.

I do have periods, where neighbouring connections move channels, and then it saturates my connection. bringing me down to about 2~5mbit over wifi.

you are comparing your 14mbit speeds to 24mbit, thats quite a jump when your talking wireless speeds. infact, almost double the bandwidth previously required.

raytaylor has written an excellent bit on wireless which might help you understand a little better..

do the tests over Ethernet. then you can argue your speeds aren't up to par. your isp has no requirements to provide you with any sort of assured wireless speed. once again, convenience feature.
if over Ethernet things still aren't looking great, well then you have some more stones to toss, and likely more successful ones.

think of wireless like a road, you only have so many lanes that can be used to transfer data through the airways, likely you have a few neighbours.. what happens when their packets (cars) all join the road with you? somewhere along the lines, you have to take turns.

also note, im making the assumption when you went from ADSL to VDSL, you switched modems.

#include <std_disclaimer>

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

Jase2985

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#1097603 29-Jul-2014 07:12

a few points

1. wifi analyser only shows you wifi, it does not show, portable fones, microwaves, media streamers (these absolutely saturate the wifi spectrum), or any other type of electrical interferance on the 2.4ghz band. so while it is a useful tool to ensure you are on a channel that no one else it on it doesn't show you anything other than wifi. there could be a tonne of other interference that could be affecting your connection and you have no real way of measuring that. Hence we keep telling you that wifi is a complimentary solution to ethernet

2. there are many many reasons why i cound get 32mbps over your 24mbps. but also remember that value is near enough to the maximum speed of the connection not the average speed. here is a list of things that could affect what speed you get, the brand/model of modem, the processing power of your modem, wifi channel (1-13), wifi mode (b/g/n), what speed your device connects to the wifi network (eg 54bmps, it will only ever get a maximum through put of about 24mbps as thats how wifi works), wifi interference (mentioned above), the distance between your device and the modem (number of walls or obstructions etc), your wifi card in your device, the CPU you have in your pc, the ram you have, the operating system you run, the version of java you have.

as you can see there is a tonne of different things that can effect your wifi speed so its unrealistic for you to expect to get line speed all the time.

what speed does your device say it connected at? mine were all connected at 65mbps on a modem capable of 130mbps and i could max it out on my ipad at about 40mbps actual through put.

at the end of the day you still havent shown weather its a VDSL issue or not, which i doubt it is. its more than likely a wifi issue and you need to investigate that to find out why you are not getting the speed you think you should be getting.

you need to find out the following:
what modem are you using?
what channel are you on? how many others are on that channel, how many others overlap that channel
what mode are you using, b/g/n/ac
what is the connected speed of your device? 11mbps, 54mbps etc etc, you should be able to see this on the modem too
how many devices are connected wirelessly to your network? the more that are connected the slower it will go, even if they are not sending data they will sill be sending something to say they are connected and the way wifi works this will slow things down.

those are basic things you can do to help fault find your network.

most of all test your connection over ethernet

Jase2985

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#1097604 29-Jul-2014 07:20

oh and look at many of the other thread where people complain about poor vdsl performance, and it turns out they are using wifi. very very common issue because people think they know how wifi works and expect more than they actually get. when really they dont quiet know how it works and it ends up disappointing them.

if you want to download stuff use a Ethernet cable

FireEngine

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#1097609 29-Jul-2014 07:23

User123456: when I do the speed test over wifi, the modem doesnt budge off 24mpbs when downloading

So when you run a speed test it is stable at 24Mbps, over WiFi? So I assume then it is when you download from other, real data, sources the throughput varies? Your previous ADSL service was "stable" in that regard and your new VDSL service is "not stable" is that all correct or have I misunderstood?

Regards FireEngine

User123456

55 posts

Master Geek

#1097932 29-Jul-2014 15:18

@hio77: Thank you for taking the time to compose that post. If anyone donest understand the basic concept of wifi and how it works after reading that, then I dont think they should be using a wireless connection at all...

I agree that going from 14mpbs to 24-26mpbs is quite a huge jump... but I am able to achieve a constant speed of that (22mpbs in my latest test) over a wireless connection while doing a speed test. If say I were jumping up to a line speed of 100mbps then sure I can understand why I wouldn't get 100mpbs through wifi (modem depending).

I have done the ethernet test and will post my results below after replying to Jase and FireEngine.

@Jase2985: All pointes are duly noted, thank you too for taking the time to list all of them as well. With your second point, I have ruled out most of them (especially the ones relating to computer specs, as I am using the same computer I was before all of this. The only thing that has changed is the modem, and the type of service. Everything else as far devices/number of devices/more wifi networks in the area etc are still the same. I wouldnt argue this point if it had been a year and Im noticing speed drops, any amount of factors could have changed then that I would have been unaware of. However this is just 2 week after it has been installed... (hense why I also thought it was the line training, but that has been ruled out)

To answer your questions:
what modem are you using?
•The white NetcommWireless modem that Orcon sends out for use on their VDSL/UFB plans

what channel are you on? how many others are on that channel, how many others overlap that channel
•Currently on Channel 13, according to the WifiAnalyzer app, there are no other wireless connections in range that are on the same channel, and there doesnt seem to be any overlapping

what mode are you using, b/g/n/ac
•I believe its n. I had a quick look through the modem interface/configuration page but was unable to see this. Still getting used to the new interface.

what is the connected speed of your device? 11mbps, 54mbps etc etc, you should be able to see this on the modem too
•Connected speed is 72.2mpbs

how many devices are connected wirelessly to your network?
•At the time of testing, none. At the time of downloading from my source that gave constant downloading speeds previously, also none.

Jase2985: if you want to download stuff use a Ethernet cable

This is not an option for me as I cannot run a cable from my desktop, through the house and to the modem.

Onto the tests:
Procedure - I used my laptop (i7 4510U@3.1Ghz, 8GB RAM, GT 840M) to do the ethernet tests and then used my desktop (i7 920@2.6Ghz, 8GB RAM, HD7850) to run the test again over the wifi. I ran the Orcon Speed test 3 times per connection to make sure it wasnt just a one off.

Wireless

Ethernet

Conclusion:
As you can see, the download speed using the ethernet cable was marginally quicker than wifi speed. Both downloaded and uploaded consistency with no visible drops whatsoever. Im going to conclude that the wifi is not the issue here.

User123456

55 posts

Master Geek

#1097944 29-Jul-2014 15:46

FireEngine:
User123456: when I do the speed test over wifi, the modem doesnt budge off 24mpbs when downloading

So when you run a speed test it is stable at 24Mbps, over WiFi? So I assume then it is when you download from other, real data, sources the throughput varies? Your previous ADSL service was "stable" in that regard and your new VDSL service is "not stable" is that all correct or have I misunderstood?

Sorry FireEngine, completely forgot about this post. But yes. That is exactly it. If I didn't misread your message in any way, then you have havent misunderstood...
Im nervous for what you might say after this...

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