Unsure whether to upgrade from ADSL (200GB) to VDSL (Uncapped)

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › Unsure whether to upgrade from ADSL (200GB) to VDSL (Uncapped)

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#1098714 30-Jul-2014 16:51

expanding on what I was saying about distance

"Second-generation systems (VDSL2; ITU-T G.993.2 approved in February 2006) use frequencies of up to 30 MHz to provide data rates exceeding 100 Mbit/s simultaneously in both the upstream and downstream directions. The maximum available bit rate is achieved at a range of about 300 meters; performance degrades as the loop attenuation increases."

Taken from here

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Nebbie

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#1098718 30-Jul-2014 17:02

User123456: @FireEngine - Ok, thank you. Thats pretty much how I learnt the way TCP works. According to what you said then, "Due to the upload/download speed differences to use the max download throughput you need a clear upload path..." I did have a clear upload path, therefore the download speed should be at the maximum available, and something like the speed test confirms this for me as when nothing is uploading, I get a download transfer rate of 23mbps.

"It also suggests that if the circuit will support 30-40GB upload in a 24hr period, the circuit can't have any serious issues up or down" The circuit being what passes through Orcon?

The above also amuses there is 0% packet transmissions due to packet loss. Packet loss will blow your TCP window out and have a massive reduction in speed for a small amount of loss. If you are bordering getting VDSL your line may have to re-transmit a number of packets due to errors.

Keep in mind just because you do a ping to a destination and see loss doesn't mean there is packet loss.

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hio77

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#1098735 30-Jul-2014 18:01

FlameBeard: expanding on what I was saying about distance

"Second-generation systems (VDSL2; ITU-T G.993.2 approved in February 2006) use frequencies of up to 30 MHz to provide data rates exceeding 100 Mbit/s simultaneously in both the upstream and downstream directions. The maximum available bit rate is achieved at a range of about 300 meters; performance degrades as the loop attenuation increases."

Taken from here

although on chorus VDSL, profiles only go up to 17a currently, and i dont see that changing.

with the profile being limited a few constrains including less then 350M/ 7dB attenuation as measured with the network Analyser..

by those numbers, i guess if chorus enabled 30a ild say it would be something like 200M...

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FlameBeard

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#1098741 30-Jul-2014 18:19

hio77:
FlameBeard: expanding on what I was saying about distance

"Second-generation systems (VDSL2; ITU-T G.993.2 approved in February 2006) use frequencies of up to 30 MHz to provide data rates exceeding 100 Mbit/s simultaneously in both the upstream and downstream directions. The maximum available bit rate is achieved at a range of about 300 meters; performance degrades as the loop attenuation increases."

Taken from here

although on chorus VDSL, profiles only go up to 17a currently, and i dont see that changing.

with the profile being limited a few constrains including less then 350M/ 7dB attenuation as measured with the network Analyser..

by those numbers, i guess if chorus enabled 30a ild say it would be something like 200M...

I wish I knew as much about VDSL as you do man. So I'll take your word on that.

hio77

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#1098746 30-Jul-2014 18:28

FlameBeard:
I wish I knew as much about VDSL as you do man. So I'll take your word on that.

you could call it a bit of a passion..

my source on 17a is publicly posted here however, http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=35&topicid=136643&page_no=3#967458

BMarquis:

We have a number of conditions that must be met for your line to be switched to a 17a Spectrum profile.
If your line is on the 17a spectrum profile, but the spectrum between 8Mhz and 17Mhz is not being used, I'd be looking at your CPE. it shouldn't report 17a unless the DSLAM is providing that, and we run 8b and 17a on independant profiles.

As for the question of 'what allows a line to be on 17a':

The current bandplan is 8b (goes without saying!)
The line is shorter than 350 meters, which is an electrical length in the 5530 Network Analyser of <7dB
DLM is in operation on that line
A Bandplan switch hasn't occured in the last 90 days (to stop bouncing between 8b+17a, while still allowing re-evaluation as/when required)

ofcourse, 6 months later, its possible parameters have changed a little but unlikely.. it would have a pretty obvious wave on GZ of OMG i have 17a! (like when the above constrains started working)

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User123456

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#1098749 30-Jul-2014 18:40

FlameBeard: Simply put it is because VDSL works exceptionally well within 800m cable length of the exchange. Past that you start to see what you're getting. You're borderline for us insisting on a roll back to ADSL.
If you want to proceed with that, at the cost of speed, we do that free of charge. Or if you want to stay on VDSL at the cost of stability, you're more than welcome.

Thats a pitty... so close yet so far :). Its just 100 more meters... I thought it would have affected the upload speed more than anything (no idea why), or at least the download speed would be the same as my ADSL seen as that was also the same distance away as the VDSL is now.

I dont think I want to sacrifice the upload speed, haven't convinced myself to do that just yet. But at least I know. Thank you.

Added in afterwards: I have just seen that FlameBeard has added on and Nebbie has just touched on this as well, and basically because I am at the borderline and max distance from the exchange, I should expect an unstable download speed? Even though when doing a speed test the download speed it is as constant as can be?

and @Nebbie would these be the packet losses you are talking about? http://puu.sh/awTn3/cd69108352.png (near the end of that list)?

hio:77

where are you testing your download speeds to?

if your doing something say, international, its likely tcp window scaling is doing its its job, and jumping around a little bit when detecting it has scaled to high.

on a graph, this will often look like sawteeth.

I was waiting for someone to ask this. I am testing from www.mega.co.nz
And I would definitely agree if it were international. It was like that on ADSL as well

Out of curiosity, I gave it (mega) a test today on my Uni's internet and downloaded a 700MB file at 2.5MB/s for the entire duration of the download (about 4 minutes). Granted they might have fiber installed (I doubt it) but it shows that the source is reliable.

@FireEngine - sorry forgot to address this issue in my last message, but would you like me to still run some tests at peak time? I assume this will anytime after 6pm or so?

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#1098752 30-Jul-2014 18:45

your error rates arent extreme.. however i can only best guess as you didnt include connection uptime.

it is enough to be a packet every once in a blue moon to cause issues however.

got an exact test file to compare with?

worth considering, megas peering can be funny sometimes.

last time i tested with them, i was maxing out solid over v6, but cant say its a service i regularly touch.

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FireEngine

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#1098753 30-Jul-2014 18:48

User123456: when doing a speed test the download speed it is as constant as can be?

You just lost me, speed tests are stable? Only Mega varies on VDSL, speed tests and Mega were stable on ADSL?

Regards FireEngine

User123456

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#1098852 30-Jul-2014 21:53

hio77: your error rates arent extreme.. however i can only best guess as you didnt include connection uptime.

it is enough to be a packet every once in a blue moon to cause issues however.

got an exact test file to compare with?

worth considering, megas peering can be funny sometimes.

last time i tested with them, i was maxing out solid over v6, but cant say its a service i regularly touch.

Uptime has been currently been 4D 11H 15M 14S as of 30 July 2014. It would have been longer had I not hat to restart the modem the other day because there was no internet connection at all...
Hmm I see, I must say it feels like a little more than a blue moon as I have to quite often reload a web page before the entire web page arrives.

When you say an "exact test file to compare with" you mean the file from Mega that I downloaded?

I use mega quite often and can say that I can not recall another time when the download wasnt at it's best (besides this time around of course). Unless you have another location that I could download something from and report back on the speed? Just give another real world example.

FireEngine:
User123456: when doing a speed test the download speed it is as constant as can be?

You just lost me, speed tests are stable? Only Mega varies on VDSL, speed tests and Mega were stable on ADSL?

Sorry about that FireEngine. What you said though is correct. In summary a VDSL speedtest (speedtest.orcon.net.nz) provided a constant download and upload speed for the duration of the test. However when downloading from Mega, on the VDSL plan, the download speed varies (~500KB/s to 2.5MB/s tested over a 4 minute download time) and the upload speed is constant at 1.1MB/s.
When I tested it on my previous plan, ADSL, all speeds were constant, both on the speedtest and on Mega (1.1MB/s download and 100KB/s upload). Hope that is more clear?

FireEngine

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#1098858 30-Jul-2014 22:05

User123456: Sorry about that FireEngine. What you said though is correct. In summary a VDSL speedtest (speedtest.orcon.net.nz) provided a constant download and upload speed for the duration of the test. However when downloading from Mega, on the VDSL plan, the download speed varies (~500KB/s to 2.5MB/s tested over a 4 minute download time) and the upload speed is constant at 1.1MB/s.
When I tested it on my previous plan, ADSL, all speeds were constant, both on the speedtest and on Mega (1.1MB/s download and 100KB/s upload). Hope that is more clear?

Ok, that sounds like Mega are rationing bandwidth per connection, the VDSL is simply able to burst slightly higher but attaining a similar average. Unless you have a lot of variation in speed test results to our server (which being in NZ is a better test of your circuit, then I can't see an issue.

I get a similar effect if I use a speed test app, the instantaneous speed can vary during the test by quite a margin. At the end of the day the network tries to ship data to you as fast as it can.

So you just need to decide whether to roll back now.

Regards FireEngine

Jase2985

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#1098953 31-Jul-2014 06:53

http://zeus.jetstream.co.nz/450M.bin

try that file, its 450mb and from a nz server, you should have no issues with it as i and others can pull line speed the whole time downloading it on a vdsl connection.

if your connection is to an overseas site dont ever expect to get line speed as there are so many factors outside of your isps control that can influence speed

User123456

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#1099587 31-Jul-2014 19:27

FireEngine:
User123456: Sorry about that FireEngine. What you said though is correct. In summary a VDSL speedtest (speedtest.orcon.net.nz) provided a constant download and upload speed for the duration of the test. However when downloading from Mega, on the VDSL plan, the download speed varies (~500KB/s to 2.5MB/s tested over a 4 minute download time) and the upload speed is constant at 1.1MB/s.
When I tested it on my previous plan, ADSL, all speeds were constant, both on the speedtest and on Mega (1.1MB/s download and 100KB/s upload). Hope that is more clear?

Ok, that sounds like Mega are rationing bandwidth per connection, the VDSL is simply able to burst slightly higher but attaining a similar average. Unless you have a lot of variation in speed test results to our server (which being in NZ is a better test of your circuit, then I can't see an issue.

So you just need to decide whether to roll back now.

I may be being stubborn with this, but I don't think Mega is rotating bandwidth (I say this because I have achieved consistent downloads from them right up until the switch over to VDSL). Im not saying that they dont do this, however its strange that this only started occurring once once the switch over took place. The general web browsing also seems very temperamental with a web page loading instantly to the same web page not loading at all until I refresh it. I noticed something else in the modems settings, and thats that QoS is disabled?? Should this be like this on VDSL? I know it was enabled on ADSL...

If you could increase the ADSL upload speed to 1MB/s, I would roll back in a heart beat ;).

I get a similar effect if I use a speed test app, the instantaneous speed can vary during the test by quite a margin. At the end of the day the network tries to ship data to you as fast as it can.

The speed test app (speedtest.orcon.net.nz??) jumps straight up to 23mpbs (doenst go over) and holds it there for the whole duration of the test on my side.

]

Jase2985: http://zeus.jetstream.co.nz/450M.bin

try that file, its 450mb and from a nz server, you should have no issues with it as i and others can pull line speed the whole time downloading it on a vdsl connection.

Thanks, I downloaded it and monitored the speed. I made sure all devices where disconnected from the modem and downloaded it via wi-fi on my desktop. While its probably the most consistent download I have had since on VDSL, it didnt exactly pull line speed the whole time downloading it on a vdsl connection.
Screenshot: http://puu.sh/ayvWM/e0fda98794.png

if your connection is to an overseas site dont ever expect to get line speed as there are so many factors outside of your isps control that can influence speed

For sure, I wouldn't argue that point at all... as you stated there are to many other factors involved, how ever with Mega being local, I figured I should compare apples with apples as I know what it did on ADSL

FireEngine

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#1099610 31-Jul-2014 20:07

User123456: Thanks, I downloaded it and monitored the speed. I made sure all devices where disconnected from the modem and downloaded it via wi-fi on my desktop. While its probably the most consistent download I have had since on VDSL, it didnt exactly pull line speed the whole time downloading it on a vdsl connection.
Screenshot: http://puu.sh/ayvWM/e0fda98794.png

if your connection is to an overseas site dont ever expect to get line speed as there are so many factors outside of your isps control that can influence speed

For sure, I wouldn't argue that point at all... as you stated there are to many other factors involved, how ever with Mega being local, I figured I should compare apples with apples as I know what it did on ADSL

This will likely be my last post on this thread as I am running out of useful comment.

There is a reason rollback can be offered, it is because not every VDSL connection will be as good as ADSL down the same line - you have one of those lines.

Testing over WiFi adds additional speed variation possibilities as I and almost every other poster here has warned.

Your tests to an on-net speed test server are fast and stable

Your tests to off-net servers show some variation.

That is my current understanding of where we are. Let us know if you wish to roll back. Technically we cannot offer you VDSL upload on ADSL but I am sure you know that.

Regards FireEngine

hio77

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#1099617 31-Jul-2014 20:18

alright, that zeus test looks perfect.

what i see here, is single threaded vs multi-threaded performance.

orcons speedtest app (which is basically speedtest.net) opens up multiple threads to hammer your connection, squeeze as much as it can out, because of this if wireless packets drop, lattency jiters etc your far less likely to notice jitters in the actual "download rate".

toss that dreaded ethernet cable you hate so much in, and give it a try on the zeus link again, it should go a bit more solid.

also to be fair, thats pretty rock solid.. clearly a bit of tcp scaling at the start.

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Jase2985

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#1099785 1-Aug-2014 05:28

all i have to say is, stop doing any performance testing over wifi, you are adding another variable to the list. and its most likely hindering the performance you are seeing

but there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with your connection

i would still keep it over a roll back to adsl

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