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Ashlin

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#279980 20-Nov-2020 10:05

Hi All,

I've been a member for ages but haven't really posted anything, just used all the useful info for my own selfish purposes. ;)

I'm a techie, patent attorney and avid fixer of broken things. Curious about how things work, what's inside them and how to make them better.

I'm launching a new venture in this space, a place for connecting my fellow fixers and tinkerers to broken things and parts. Site is at Fixify and facebook is at https://www.facebook.com/fixifyNZ

Feel free to say hi.

Cheers

Ash

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#2607359 20-Nov-2020 10:05

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#2607360 20-Nov-2020 10:05

Welcome to Geekzone!

Jase2985

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#2607421 20-Nov-2020 10:48

need to fix your site

Warning: Potential Security Risk Ahead

Error code: SSL_ERROR_BAD_CERT_DOMAIN

Ashlin

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#2607424 20-Nov-2020 10:50

Sorry, bad link. Try now.

Lias

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#2608824 23-Nov-2020 09:48

Ashlin:

I'm a techie, patent attorney and avid fixer of broken things. Curious about how things work, what's inside them and how to make them better.

Welcome aboard.

I'm midly intrigued because one of these things is not like the others.. You like to pull things apart, see how they work, make them better, and at the same time your job is to use the law to prevent people doing just that..

I'm a geek, a gamer, a dad, a Quic user, and an IT Professional. I have a full rack home lab, size 15 feet, an epic beard and Asperger's. I'm a bit of a Cypherpunk, who believes information wants to be free and the Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. If you use my Quic signup you can also use the code R570394EKGIZ8 for free setup.

Dynamic

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#2608830 23-Nov-2020 09:59

Lias:

You like to pull things apart, see how they work, make them better, and at the same time your job is to use the law to prevent people doing just that..

Woah.... back up the bus @Lias. I believe a Patent Attorney helps their client to protect their invention or intellectual property. If you came up with an awesome new game app that was unique and you spent thousands of hours perfecting it, how would you feel about someone copying 90% of it, out-marketing you, and reaping the rewards of your hard work?!?!

“Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.” Douglas Adams

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Ashlin

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#2608890 23-Nov-2020 10:33

Dynamic:

Lias:

You like to pull things apart, see how they work, make them better, and at the same time your job is to use the law to prevent people doing just that..

Woah.... back up the bus @Lias. I believe a Patent Attorney helps their client to protect their invention or intellectual property. If you came up with an awesome new game app that was unique and you spent thousands of hours perfecting it, how would you feel about someone copying 90% of it, out-marketing you, and reaping the rewards of your hard work?!?!

That's ok, it's a common misunderstanding about what patent attorneys do. It's one of those nebulous jobs that most people never encounter and so form all sorts of misconceptions.

Also, because we have the word "attorney" in our title people naturally think we're some sort of lawyer, even though most of us are not. Some patent attorneys are because they choose to be dual-qualified.

If anyone wants to have a chat and learn more I'm open to having a phone call if you PM me.

Understanding how things work is probably the most important part of being a patent attorney so this new thing I'm doing is very much aligned, though obviously is much higher risk than just doing my day job 🤥.

BTW: We don't stop other people from pulling things apart and fixing them. The patent right in the invention is 'exhausted' as soon as it is sold so once you have legitimately purchased the thing you can normally do what you want with it, including pulling it apart. The restrictions you hear about on repair are normally contractual or copyright issues, e.g. by buying this widget, you agree to only use us to repair etc. OR this thing only works with our software that we are granted you a copyright license for.

Patents are a limited term monopoly granted by the govt. to the owner of invention in exchange for that invention being made publicly available and so free to use after the patent expires. The patent monopoly gives the owner the right to stop others making, using or selling the invention without the owner's permission.

Anyways, there's not many of us in NZ so it probably does seem odd to hear about one. Most of us don't exactly trumpet our role either given the sort of sideways looks and negative comments you receive.

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#2608986 23-Nov-2020 11:44

Dynamic:

Woah.... back up the bus @Lias. I believe a Patent Attorney helps their client to protect their invention or intellectual property. If you came up with an awesome new game app that was unique and you spent thousands of hours perfecting it, how would you feel about someone copying 90% of it, out-marketing you, and reaping the rewards of your hard work?!?!

"Intellectual property" is a terrible misnomer that really needs to be put to bed, because it's used to lump together multiple different things and frame them as property, when none of them are in fact property. See here for more detail.

In NZ software patents are effectively non existant, so myself or anyone else inventing an app would already be in that same situation.

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#2608992 23-Nov-2020 11:55

Ashlin:

Anyways, there's not many of us in NZ so it probably does seem odd to hear about one. Most of us don't exactly trumpet our role either given the sort of sideways looks and negative comments you receive.

I suspect most people don't really have much understanding of patents, I'm no expert but I probably have a better understanding than many simply because of my libertarian leanings. Please don't think I was meaning to have a go, while my views are probably diametrically different to yours with regards to those aforementioned goverment issued monopolies, I was (am) genuinely curious about how you see things.

Dynamic

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#2608998 23-Nov-2020 12:13

Lias:

"Intellectual property" is a terrible misnomer that really needs to be put to bed, because it's used to lump together multiple different things and frame them as property, when none of them are in fact property. See here for more detail.

In NZ software patents are effectively non existant, so myself or anyone else inventing an app would already be in that same situation.

The Kiwi 'can do' and 'number 8 wire' attitudes have come up with some pretty cool stuff, and I think that should be fostered and protected. IMHO ideas and innovations should be protected for a period of time (maybe between 5 and 50 years, depending on the type of work?). Their inventor can recoup their investment and potentially do nicely out of the innovation, whether they produce the work themselves, or license the innovation. Primarily on physical stuff, in my mind.

It may not be exactly the same thing, but I thought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act was poor form. The Amazon 1-click shopping patent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Click#Patent was also dubious in my mind.

As a consumer, I enjoy having a variety available to me, and enjoy everything from the original Sega Rally to Mario Kart to Rocket League. If 'simulated driving game' was protected for 100 years and there was literally only a single company making games where you could 'drive a car on screen' of any sort, the world would be a poorer place. If I was the inventor of that game and invested blood, sweat, tears, and money into it, I think I would deserve exclusivity for a period of time to protect my investment. Software innovations are much more challenging to quantify.

Everyone will have an opinion about where the line should be drawn, and the debate is a good thing.

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#2609011 23-Nov-2020 12:32

Dynamic:

Everyone will have an opinion about where the line should be drawn, and the debate is a good thing.

We're kind of derailing Ashlins welcome thread here, but yes I agree with you. I could probably have worded it better but attempting to at least hear/understand how he rationalises what on the face of it to me at least were opposing ideas is what prompted my original comment. Still do :-)

Dynamic

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#2609014 23-Nov-2020 12:35

Lias:

We're kind of derailing Ashlins welcome thread here, but yes I agree with you. I could probably have worded it better but attempting to at least hear/understand how he rationalises what on the face of it to me at least were opposing ideas is what prompted my original comment. Still do :-)

Oh yes.... I forgot.

Welcome, Ashlin. :)

“Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.” Douglas Adams

Referral links to services I use, really like, and may be rewarded if you sign up:
PocketSmith for budgeting and personal finance management. A great Kiwi company.

Ashlin

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#2610432 25-Nov-2020 12:33

Lias:

Dynamic:

Everyone will have an opinion about where the line should be drawn, and the debate is a good thing.

We're kind of derailing Ashlins welcome thread here, but yes I agree with you. I could probably have worded it better but attempting to at least hear/understand how he rationalises what on the face of it to me at least were opposing ideas is what prompted my original comment. Still do :-)

This prob belongs in another thread as you say but I'll briefly [edit: ok not briefly it seems] respond here. My place in Geekzone is really in relation to Fixify not patents.

I'm happy to answer specific questions about IP but I'm not going to get into any sort of debate. Online forum debates are time-sinks and almost never productive.

I don't see that there's any inherent conflict between the ideas of repair/fixing and patents. Fixing or repairing something doesn't normally involve patent infringement. The only time there would be infringement is if you are using counterfeit parts that infringe a patent. Most of the time you can source genuine parts and, if not, third party parts rarely infringe patents.

The use of patents to successfully prevent repair is rare and I cannot think of many cases at all where this has occurred. In practice, companies use other methods to prevent repair.

Let's take Apple as an example. They are enemy number one when it comes to repair, actively designing their products to be difficult to repair and particularly by independent repairers. The techniques they use to prevent repair are:

a) pairing components to each other (e.g. fingerprint sensors, cameras, faceID etc) so that they won't work if the pairing is broken. Only Apple can replace these parts as they can pair components again. Even genuine Apple parts won't work so nothing to do with patents there.

b) over-engineering the insides to be a cluttered mess with far too many screws/cables etc. This adds labour time to some repairs but again IP is irrelevant.

c) designing their internals with cables that are routed through convoluted paths to make them easy to break for the unwary, and difficult to replace or repair.

d) constraining supply of parts. They don't supply parts outside their authorised repair network to maintain monopoly on repair. Are there patents covering those parts? potentially, I haven't heard of any cases but it's possible. In the US recently they agreed to supply independent repairers but only on the condition that Apple would get all the data about the customers and repair.

e) trying to sue independent repairers for Trademark infringement. There was a case in Norway where Apple failed to stop a repairer from using refurbished parts. https://www.vice.com/en/article/9kxzpy/apple-is-still-trying-to-sue-the-owner-of-an-independent-iphone-repair-shop-louis-rossmann-henrik-huseby They are just trying intimidation here, they have no case to apply as there's no trademark or patent infringement. Apple have unlimited cash so can afford to simply out-spend anyone who dares to oppose them.

Another famous case is the John Deere constraints on repair. This case is again not about patents. John Deere started locking down their tractor software so that farmers couldn't repair their tractors. They weren't suing farmers for patent infringement.

You hear only bad stories about patents in the press because of course that's what sells journalism. However, I've yet to see any press article that's been accurate. Journalists don't have enough time or words to write accurate summaries of court cases which are often complex and nuanced. Case in point, the famous Amazon '1-click' someone else mentioned. Putting validity to one side, that Amazon patent does NOT cover the idea of 'clicking once to purchase something'. It's just media spin to make it sound outrageous and get the reader's attention. Read the patent claim to get an idea of what it actually covers.

Like all tools, IP rights can be used properly and honestly OR nefariously. Just because a few people use a tool badly doesn't make the tool inherently bad. In Apple's case, their anti-repair stance has nothing to do with their intellectual property rights and everything to do with maintaining control and maximizing revenue. They're acting within the law and it's a great business model, it just sucks for consumers and the environment.

Patents are about ensuring inventors are rewarded for their invention. Without patents, the inventor stands little chance against competitors who can simply copy. The copier hasn't incurred any R&D cost, time or effort and so starts ahead of the inventor in that race. Patents are about levelling that playing field and thereby encouraging innovation. For that reason, investors want to see that patent as well. They're just not going to be very keen if you don't have IP for an invention.

You hear some people complain that patents constrain innovation but there's no evidence this is the case. In contrast, all the stats point to the opposite conclusion. One thing to think about here is ask yourself the question: "what would I do if I wanted to make something that infringed a patent?" of course, very few people say, oh well, I just won't do anything! Most people say, hey, maybe I could work with the patent owners or just pay the license fee! Some say, I wonder if I can design a way around the patent - whadya know, now I've invented something better, soemthing that I can get my own patent for!

Despite the rhetoric you hear about IP the reality is that it's rarely that dramatic.

That's my 2c.