2 routers with Chorus ONT / Best config to have a "play router" on network

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Sidon

5 posts

Wannabe Geek

#289556 12-Sep-2021 17:05

Hi Team!

I'm hoping you might be able to provide some advice.

I'm trying to learn networking, and am thinking of investing in a MikroTik router to play with.

Problem is, I'm living in a flat with 4 other humans. This means that:

If something goes wrong with the internet connection, they will want access to the router to do the whole turn-it-off-and-on thing, so it cannot be placed in my room.
If the internet goes down because I'm fiddling with router settings, I'll potentially have 4 very angry humans at my back
I also have really would like to not become their free-and-abused in-house tech support, because the last time the internet went down and I wasn't in country, I got a heckofalot of "you need to do something about this" messages, which was extremely stressful.

We're currently on a Bigpipe UFB elite plan which, honestly, isn't fully utilised because we're limited by a standard HG659 router.

I was thinking of connecting the MikroTik and HG659 to the Chorus ONT (Model type 300) so that I could smuggle the MikroTik to my room and keep my play to a separate port, but read these two posts seem to suggest that that might not be possible:

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=66&topicid=272973
https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=66&topicid=262209

I did see this post that seems to suggest that that might not be the case:

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=49&topicid=231928

Am I getting my wires crossed somehow, and misinterpreting what the first two vs the third post is looking at achieving? (I've just reached out to my ISP to see if activating a second ONT port/connection is possible, and will post an update when that happens).

I know I probably can daisy chain MikroTik > HG659 > ONT, but that doesn't seem to make sense since the MikroTik would have far more grunt than the HG659, and the HG659 would just end up being the bottleneck in the system for any testing. It might introduce additional unnecessary complications/conflicts if the HG659 decides to not like the settings that I'm chucking into it.

I'd love to hear your thoughts, or if anyone might be able to suggest another way of setting up the network without the HG659 having any dependency on the MikroTik?

Heaps of thanks in advance!

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8953 posts

Uber Geek

#2777083 12-Sep-2021 17:32

Depending on what you are wanting to learn, you could just double NAT your connection - i.e. leave the 659 doing it's thing for the flat, and just have the WAN of the Mikrotik using DHCP to pick up an internal IP address. You won't be able to do much that requires incoming connections from the WAN side (like setting up a VPN server), but you will be able to learn the basics of RouterOS until you feel more comfortable. At that point, consider paying for a second connection for your use only.

EDIT: Looking at the suggestion above [post deleted] to go ONT-switch-2 x routers, that won't work unfortunately.

OzoneNZ

102 posts

Master Geek

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#2777096 12-Sep-2021 17:45

You could order a secondary fibre service on port 2 of your ONT, then you can use the MikroTik router with that - obvious downside being that you'll have to stump up for the cost of the secondary service each month, and the complete isolation from the primary fibre service so things that rely on LAN communication like Chromecasts won't show up on your secondary network

I think points 1. and 3. are negated by how rock-solid the performance from MikroTik hardware generally is, I've never had to reboot a MikroTik unit to fix random issues. My RB3011 has 90+ days of uptime and only goes offline for firmware updates every few weeks, but even those are optional. They are very set-and-forget assuming your configuration is all correct.

For point 2, I'm in the same situation with 3 other flatmates and I just do any tinkering late at night so as to not disrupt everyone else's service if I make a mistake

RouterOS also has a built-in Safe Mode function that will auto-revert any configuration changes you made when it detects that connectivity between your PC and the router has been interrupted

The HG659 units are capable of routing a Gigabit service without bottlenecking, but obviously their capabilities are pretty limited in contrast to RouterOS - if you daisy chain your MikroTik router behind it you'll also be running into double-NAT scenario which isn't desirable if you're intending to do things like port forwarding

If it was up to me I'd just install the MikroTik unit as your sole router, after doing all the necessary configuration and testing it out

chevrolux

4962 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#2777108 12-Sep-2021 18:09

If it's just for learning, just do double NAT. You kind of want to break things when learning so you know what you did and how to fix it.

So just go:
ONT > Huawei > Mikrotik

Your flatties will just connect directly to the Huawei, and you can fiddle to your hearts content on the Mikrotik.

Your WAN of the Mikrotik should just either be a dhcp client, or a static IP. And you can then have your own LAN behind the Mikrotik and muck around without upsetting the main network.

Edit: yes it will mean you don't have a public IP to forward stuff to. But you don't need to "learn" much about a port forward. Focus on VLANs, firewall rules, routing networks, etc. You can even do little local VPNs so you can learn how they work too.

Yabanize

2350 posts

Uber Geek

#2777117 12-Sep-2021 18:31

Don't doubt the HG659. As others have said it handles Gigabit fine. Just keep using that, unless you want to get a newer router.

The HG659 is happy until it has more than 32 devices connected

If you connect your MikroTik to one of the LAN ports, it'll still only count as one device. (but you'll have double NAT)

That's the best way to do your play without affecting your housemates.

hio77

12999 posts

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Lizard Networks

#2777143 12-Sep-2021 20:49

Get a second port activated and you should be good to go.

otherwise if you double nat it, should work well for a playground.

Just remember if your testing things like throughput to consider that there is no PPPoE tunnel etc.

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Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

hio77

12999 posts

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Lizard Networks

#2777147 12-Sep-2021 20:57

RunningMan:

EDIT: Looking at the suggestion above [post deleted] to go ONT-switch-2 x routers, that won't work unfortunately.

Yeah, in most networks won't work.

Even it it does, as there is a few providers out there that do EoIP and will just hand out another IP. but i wouldn't rely on that. it's likely unintentionally allowed.

I have been known to have a few switches sitting infront of my ONT for testing... certainly makes for a mess having all those routers though, needs musts when you have something to validate though...

#include <std_disclaimer>

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

prat33k

182 posts

Master Geek

#2777165 12-Sep-2021 22:31

Yeah all the replies above are great! I myself use a secondary router (ER-X + Unifi AP Pro) behind a Spark Smart Modem. I can't use that as the main router for the same reason as yours.

Even though it is double NAT'd, I'd like to add that you can just put your Mikrotik router's IP address in the DMZ of HG659, so you won't need to port forward stuff individually. Having this setup allows me of my own personal network where other devices (on Spark Smart Modem WiFi) can't snoop into my devices and you get to play with whatever network changes without people complaining about internet breaking at 2 AM in the night.

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michaelmurfy

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#2777168 12-Sep-2021 22:58

I use a Mikrotik myself but also have an "ONT Simulator" running on it where I've got one port with a PPPoE server running on VLAN 10, another without VLAN 10 and a third with IPoE on VLAN 10. This gives me the ability to test multiple routers behind my main router without dropping my internet connection.

I know this is sorta the opposite you want to do but learn with the Mikrotik with the advise above, turn it into your "production router" and then you can use it for additional learning.

Michael Murphy | https://murfy.nz
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Tinkerisk

4224 posts

Uber Geek

#2777245 13-Sep-2021 10:18

Sidon:

Hi Team!

3.) I also have really would like to not become their free-and-abused in-house tech support, because the last time the internet went down and I wasn't in country, I got a heckofalot of "you need to do something about this" messages, which was extremely stressful.

I fear this will become standard anyway. Either get your independent plan (as mentioned by others) or move out. Seriously.

Or less seriously: buy yourself the ‚It wasn‘t me’ T-shirt! ;-)

- NET: FTTH, OPNsense, 10G backbone, GWN APs, ipPBX
- SRV: 12 RU HA server cluster, 0.1 PB storage on premise
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- 3D: two 3D printers, 3D scanner, CNC router, laser cutter

Zeon

3916 posts

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#2777361 13-Sep-2021 12:44

Mikrotik has to be the steepest learning curve I've had on network equipment.... was setting up VLANs over the weekend. Once you learn its fine but damn how tough is that UI!

A few ideas for you:

Apparently they support running in client mode on a wireless connection so can hotspot your phone (will almost certainly be double NAT IPv4)
How big is the IPv6 subnet BigPipe give you? Must be bigger than a /64 - /56 is standard I think. You could set a part of that - say a /60 to get routed by your existing router to your Mikrotik for true end-to-end/No-NAT. Lots of the internet is IPv6 these days
If you can't get another UFB port "lit up" then maybe try ADSL?

Speedtest 2019-10-14

MadEngineer

4271 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#2777368 13-Sep-2021 12:52

Screw all that - just make the primary device the Mikrotik and use the complaints from the flaties as part of the education.

You’ll miss a lot of the experience by not having the Mikrotik as the primary

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

nitro

656 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2777526 13-Sep-2021 14:04

MadEngineer: Screw all that - just make the primary device the Mikrotik and use the complaints from the flaties as part of the education.

You’ll miss a lot of the experience by not having the Mikrotik as the primary

there's a ballsy approach! until they kick you out of the flat.

otoh, just make sure you put the HG659 back on duty if you're going to be away for a while.

but if you're a mikrotik virgin, you should probably start with the double nat scenario (ont-hg659-mikrotik) mentioned above.

michelangelonz

115 posts

Master Geek

#2777696 13-Sep-2021 16:39

Setup a DMZ to the IP address of your router with the HG659.

nztim

3812 posts

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TEAMnetwork

Subscriber

#2777804 13-Sep-2021 18:40

michaelmurfy:
I use a Mikrotik myself but also have an "ONT Simulator" running on it where I've got one port with a PPPoE server running on VLAN 10, another without VLAN 10 and a third with IPoE on VLAN 10. This gives me the ability to test multiple routers behind my main router without dropping my internet connection.

I know this is sorta the opposite you want to do but learn with the Mikrotik with the advise above, turn it into your "production router" and then you can use it for additional learning.

The ONT Simulator is Great!

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

MadEngineer

4271 posts

Uber Geek

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#2778396 14-Sep-2021 18:38

Progression of learning ROS goes something like this:

What on earth is this black box?
That's a lot of functions
Wholey functions Batman
Hot dang that's a lot of tricks
Never heard of that one, what's that do?
Oh wow how do I do this?
Oh what why isn't this working?
Oh duh yeah that makes sense
What I've been doing it so wrong all along
MTCNA
Books
Yo, have you heard of Mikrotik?
Makin memes

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

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