Unsure whether to upgrade from ADSL (200GB) to VDSL (Uncapped)

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › Unsure whether to upgrade from ADSL (200GB) to VDSL (Uncapped)

User123456

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#143848 29-Apr-2014 16:32

Hi there.

So I have been a happy Orcon customer for about 2 years now, and I would like to take advantage of their VDSL plans (as UFB is not available where I am yet). How ever, as the internet would have it, there are some very unhappy people with the service of VDSL. Their Facebook page is a good example of this. I do understand that each person's connection quality would be different based on all sorts of variables, but the main thing I am worried about is the VDSL service being worse on an uncapped plan than my current 200GB ADSL plan.

Ideally I would love to trial out the VDSL for a month (would pay the monthly related costs) but don't want to be locked into a contract until I decide that I am happy with the service. If you are looking for some customer feedback, majority of people hate contracts! I am very happy paying an extra $5 monthly rental fee instead of being in a contract.

If anyone was in the same situation as me, please let me know what you did and what your experience was/still is?

As for any Orcon representative, if you give me the chance to trail out the VDSL connection, or waive the contract, I would do anything I can in return for you guys.

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#1033238 29-Apr-2014 16:45

Worse in what way? There are no traffic national/international/priority/shaping differences (we have no shaping at all on any of our ip pools) between ADSL, VDSL and UFB with Orcon. If your VDSL sync does not show a marked improvement to justify the price difference then there is free rollback to ADSL.

I can be ultra-clear about this, there are no throttles applied to any traffic on our capped, or uncapped plans - the ONLY feature difference (ignoring any bundle differences as the 200Gb plan is a couple of years or so old), is the included data volume.

Sorry but we get locked into a contract by our supplier....more so if anything on VDSL as the mandatory master splitter install is built-in to the installation cost, and the installation cost is built-in to the line rental, hence the minimum period.

Regards FireEngine

User123456

55 posts

Master Geek

#1033242 29-Apr-2014 16:59

FireEngine: Worse in what way?

Apologies for not stating earlier. I have seen complaints ranging from speed drops (slower than their original ADSL connection), high pings, noticeable peak and off peak speeds and web pages (YouTube, Facebook etc) being unable to load or loading in poor quality respectively.

FireEngine: There are no traffic national/international/priority/shaping differences (we have no shaping at all on any of our ip pools) between ADSL, VDSL and UFB with Orcon. If your VDSL sync does not show a marked improvement to justify the price difference then there is free rollback to ADSL.

This is handy to know. Who determines this and may I ask how it is calculated? (just to get a better understanding). Knowing this, I am more leaning more to try it out then. Your customer service department has been nothing but helpful to me, so im sure switching back wouldnt be a problem if need be.

FireEngine: I can be ultra-clear about this, there are no throttles applied to any traffic on our capped, or uncapped plans

Oh, I was under the impression that you throttled peer to peer connections?? I think this was only during peak hours or when a pool ran out of bandwidth/need more. I have a feeling I read this under "how uncapped is uncapped" section on your website.

FireEngine:Sorry but we get locked into a contract by our supplier....more so if anything on VDSL as the mandatory master splitter install is built-in to the installation cost, and the installation cost is built-in to the line rental, hence the minimum period.

Ah ok I see, that makes sense and I can understand that. Your free rollback option has peaked my interest (depending on what you list the conditions as). So I shall disregard this idea from now on.

Sideface

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#1033243 29-Apr-2014 17:00

I recently upgraded from Orcon ADSL2 to VDSL2 at the same address.
The Chorus install included a new VDSL filter at the External Termination Point (ETP) and new Cat6 cable run to a new RJ45 jackpoint.
I was upgraded to a new "white" Orcon Genius modem at no charge.
Unfortunately, my VDSL speeds after the upgrade were only marginally better than my previous ADSL speeds, and were less than 15/5Mbps down/up.
This slow VDSL connection was due to the line distance between me and the local cabinet - in no way was it Orcon's fault.
Orcon cheerfully wound me back to ADSL with no penalty - excellent service.
If your downstream attenuation is 10.5dB or less, then you are probably a candidate for VDSL.
My advice - go for it

(provided that you pass the prequal test for VDSL)

Sideface

User123456

55 posts

Master Geek

#1033258 29-Apr-2014 17:06

Sideface: I recently upgraded from Orcon ADSL2 to VDSL2 at the same address.
The Chorus install included a new VDSL filter at the External Termination Point (ETP) and new Cat6 cable run to a new RJ45 jackpoint.
I was upgraded to a new "white" Orcon Genius modem at no charge.
Unfortunately, my VDSL speeds after the upgrade were only marginally better than my previous ADSL speeds, and were less than 15/5Mbps down/up.
This slow VDSL connection was due to the line distance between me and the local cabinet - in no way was it Orcon's fault.
Orcon cheerfully wound me back to ADSL with no penalty - excellent service.
If your downstream attenuation is 10.5dB or less, then you are probably a candidate for VDSL.
My advice - go for it (provided that you pass the prequal test for VDSL)

Ah awesome. Thank you for the info. Sorry hear that it didnt work out, but I am glad that you were able to get a rollback. Further enforces FireEngines comment about it.
My current speeds sit at 1048kbp/s upstream and 14259 kbp/s downstream. My attenuation is at 4db upstream and 12db downstream... going on what you mentioned, I may be in the same boat as you?

Thank you once again.

Sideface

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#1033261 29-Apr-2014 17:10

User123456: My current speeds sit at 1048kbp/s upstream and 14259 kbp/s downstream. My attenuation is at 4db upstream and 12db downstream... going on what you mentioned, I may be in the same boat as you?

Hopefully not.
The 10.5dB refers to measurements outside your house (ignoring your existing house wiring) - your downstream attenuation may be less that 12dB - get a "prequal" done.

Sideface

FireEngine

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#1033276 29-Apr-2014 17:23

User123456: This is handy to know. Who determines this and may I ask how it is calculated?

Its a meeting of minds, there is no hard and fast rule as it depends what your starting speed was, suffice to say if it isn't faster by at least the proportional price increase we and Chorus would fully support a rollback, not had one declined so far (in probably 20 or so cases). Its generally rocket-ship or damp squib so fairly clear-cut either way. We would be on your side so if you aren't happy, we ask for a rollback, no issues.

I'm not aware of any cases (except ending up with a slower speed than ADSL - a possibility when you make changes to your line - and that would cause general web issues), where the move to VDSL has introduced any of those issues you mention specific to the address moving to VDSL. They would either be general issues occurring around the same time with different causes, or occasionally going to VDSL uncovers a line fault that under ADSL wasn't having a noticeable impact.

Also be careful how far you go back, we only launched 4mths ago so there will be some comments from trial customers and early adopters which might have had more than their fair share of issues while Chorus delivery processes....bed in.

Regards FireEngine

User123456

55 posts

Master Geek

#1033301 29-Apr-2014 17:51

Sideface: Hopefully not.
The 10.5dB refers to measurements outside your house (ignoring your existing house wiring) - your downstream attenuation may be less that 12dB - get a "prequal" done.

Alrighty. Well I will get the technician over in next 2 weeks or so and will see if it passes or fails xD

FireEngine: Its a meeting of minds, there is no hard and fast rule as it depends what your starting speed was, suffice to say if it isn't faster by at least the proportional price increase we and Chorus would fully support a rollback, not had one declined so far (in probably 20 or so cases). Its generally rocket-ship or damp squib so fairly clear-cut either way. We would be on your side so if you aren't happy, we ask for a rollback, no issues.

This is very convincing to know! Glad to hear as well.

FireEngine:I'm not aware of any cases (except ending up with a slower speed than ADSL - a possibility when you make changes to your line - and that would cause general web issues), where the move to VDSL has introduced any of those issues you mention specific to the address moving to VDSL. They would either be general issues occurring around the same time with different causes, or occasionally going to VDSL uncovers a line fault that under ADSL wasn't having a noticeable impact.

Also be careful how far you go back, we only launched 4mths ago so there will be some comments from trial customers and early adopters which might have had more than their fair share of issues while Chorus delivery processes....bed in.

The most recent comment I found, and was my reference point in this case was on the 28th of April 2014 (https://www.facebook.com/Orcon/posts/10152387651873620). But yes you are right, some of the comments I was thinking about must go back past 4 months. Sorry about that.

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FireEngine

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#1033311 29-Apr-2014 18:10

User123456: Sorry about that.

No problem at all :-)

Regards FireEngine

User123456

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#1033552 29-Apr-2014 22:38

I have one more question, (and both you and Sideface are welcome to answer this) but is there a period of time that you can request the rollback within? I.e Say the technician determines the speed is fine and you go ahead and have it installed, then 1 week later the speed drops worse than ADSL and customer care cant solve the issue? Would you be allowed to rollback then?

FireEngine

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#1033569 29-Apr-2014 23:00

User123456: I have one more question, (and both you and Sideface are welcome to answer this) but is there a period of time that you can request the rollback within? I.e Say the technician determines the speed is fine and you go ahead and have it installed, then 1 week later the speed drops worse than ADSL and customer care cant solve the issue? Would you be allowed to rollback then?

VDSL has DLM enabled, this means the line quality is sampled continuously for 10 days and the line profile is changed dynamically (called training), to the best profile for speed and stability. It de facto means a rollback can be requested easily up to 10 days as the line training may not have completed, sometimes Chorus are anxious to let the 10 days complete before agreeing to a rollback, either way you can take it that a rollback in the 10-14day timeframe is perfectly possible.

Equally, in general, unless a fault develops after install, VDSL trains very quickly to the best profile for the line.

Regards FireEngine

User123456

55 posts

Master Geek

#1033575 29-Apr-2014 23:15

FireEngine: VDSL has DLM enabled, this means the line quality is sampled continuously for 10 days and the line profile is changed dynamically (called training), to the best profile for speed and stability. It de facto means a rollback can be requested easily up to 10 days as the line training may not have completed, sometimes Chorus are anxious to let the 10 days complete before agreeing to a rollback, either way you can take it that a rollback in the 10-14day timeframe is perfectly possible.

Equally, in general, unless a fault develops after install, VDSL trains very quickly to the best profile for the line.

Oh thats awesome. I had no idea about that. Well thats answers that question then. Thank you very much. 10-14 days is very generous and im sure if anything goes wrong after that, it would be a fault of some sort. Does it continue to scan and profile the line after those 10 days?? Perhaps not as frequently?

To me it would makes sense that it should as you may not download/upload as much in one 10 period compared to the next.

FireEngine

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#1033582 30-Apr-2014 00:08

Yes but it samples the line daily and makes a weekly change after the 10-day initial training period.

Regards FireEngine

matisyahu

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#1033590 30-Apr-2014 01:12

I'm with Telecom but I'm sure this general rule of thumb applies - it comes down to what you're going to use it for and whether you're already maxing out what bandwidth you have and gaining that extra bit will make a huge difference. Also, in the case of VDSL2 there is no guarantee of an improve especially if the wiring in the house is spaghetti junction which necessitates also having a look at how the telephone wiring is setup in ones house.

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#1033661 30-Apr-2014 09:08

User123456: To me it would makes sense that it should as you may not download/upload as much in one 10 period compared to the next.

its got nothing at all to do with how much you upload/download, its to do with the attenuation and signal to noise ratio on your line. this can be inpacted by wiring faults or cross talk which can impact your line and cause the connection speed to drop. Also people having installs with out master filters can put noise back into the lines which degrades service.

Some people on here have gone from about 40Mbps to the mid to high 20's with out changing anything due to what most think is cross talk, but its still faster than ADSL as they have 10Mbps upload speed as well.

Get a prequal done from your isp so that they can give you an estimate on what you may be able to get speed wise. From there if you wish to continue book it in and then the ISP will send a tech round to install the master filter and a dedicated VDSL jackpoint (pretty sure bigpipe is the only one who doesnt do it these days), then your ISP will need to ensure you are put on a VDSL profile, and after that your 10 day training period will start. after a couple of days you should notice the latency decrease, and also the speed will probably decrease a little (2-3Mbps) too, thats a tradeoff for the lower latency. if your line is good enough you should settle on DLM-1.

IMO go for it, if you dont get more than about 15 down and about 5 up then you dont loose much by rolling back

FireEngine

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#1033668 30-Apr-2014 09:16

kawaii: I'm with Telecom but I'm sure this general rule of thumb applies - it comes down to what you're going to use it for and whether you're already maxing out what bandwidth you have and gaining that extra bit will make a huge difference. Also, in the case of VDSL2 there is no guarantee of an improve especially if the wiring in the house is spaghetti junction which necessitates also having a look at how the telephone wiring is setup in ones house.

This is mostly misinformation.

VDSL comes with a mandatory line check, Master splitter, new cabling and jackpot. If that doesn't achieve a good and acceptable speed increase vs ADSL on the line then there IS a guaranteed reversal to ADSL technology and cost (although the splitter etc is typically left in place).

So that IS a guarantee of an improvement, especially with respect to the wiring involved.

As our service provides voip to the modem, the rest of the house wiring can be safely disconnected from the master JP, then either left disconnected or connected to the modem phone port if required to run the house JPs.

Regards FireEngine

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