Dimmable LED Downlights - variable vs fixed steppings

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openmedia

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#279534 21-Oct-2020 15:50

We've been looking at a number of replacement downlight options for our house, and for two rooms we'd like to have dimmable options. A number of the dimmable down-light units appear to have fixed steppings

Eg - 3-step dimming function, at 100%, 50% and 12.5% light output.

Has anyone found a brand of downlights that come close to the level way traditional analog downlights work as I was hoping for something closer to a 5% or 10% level of steps rather than 3 options.

My goal is to use these with a Home Assistance compatible smart dimmer like the Brilliant ones.

[PB Tech] Brilliant Smart Relay Switch

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

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#2589824 21-Oct-2020 15:54

Had zero luck with many dimmable LEDs for reliable dimming, reliable brightening and most importantly no 100Hz flicker on them.

Remember that your eyes are not linear so even a 1% on PWM dimming will still have a decent amount of light in the room, they need to have decent current controlled drivers to get to actual low brightness levels and that costs real money and people flip out at the idea of only $30 on a downlight and lap up the $10 ones that suck all day.

Richard rich.ms

timmmay

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#2590026 21-Oct-2020 20:41

I got LED downlights made for dimming that recommended a type of dimmer. I tried that type, and every other type, and had various types of flickering before giving up and using them at full power. I've had no luck with LED dimming.

bfginger

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#2590084 21-Oct-2020 23:28

There are trailing edge and leading edge dimmers. LEDs from a technical point of view should have trailing edge dimmers but dimmers are usually leading edge or "universal" set to leading edge by default (don't expect an electrician to understand the difference and change the setting). To further complicate things the quality of dimmers is often lacking or the LED was only ever tested with leading edge dimmers. Many LED downlights aren't good enough to justify fixturing over using a bayonet.

The combination of NZ made dimmer and LEDs should work for dimming based on my experience

http://www.kiwielectronics.co.nz/ptedimmers.html

https://www.switch-lighting.co.nz/

pdh

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#2590105 22-Oct-2020 04:39

Go and grab one of the Hue starter kits - bulb, hub & dimmer control.
Screw (or bayonet) the bulb into one of your existing 'can' downlights and have a play.

You'll get bullet-proof operation and smooth (step-less) dimming from a glimmer on up.

You could probably just get a Hue BT/hub bulb and experiment - without a hub or dimmer control - using your phone to drive the bulb directly via BT.
I only worked with older bulbs (via the hub) - not with that newer BT capability.

But I'm super happy with about a dozen bulbs (E27 & GU10) & multiple dimmers & motion sensors.
I intend to put some of the Hue all-in-one down-lights into a new house.
Pity they haven't really upgraded the Aphelion model - it's a bit long in the tooth.
But the Hue lights do work really well.

cyril7

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#2590112 22-Oct-2020 07:23

Hi, as others have said, the only real meaning full dimmer will be a current controlled one not one dependant on simple sine wave chopping.

Cyril

openmedia

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#2590143 22-Oct-2020 10:08

pdh:

Go and grab one of the Hue starter kits - bulb, hub & dimmer control.
Screw (or bayonet) the bulb into one of your existing 'can' downlights and have a play.

You'll get bullet-proof operation and smooth (step-less) dimming from a glimmer on up.

You could probably just get a Hue BT/hub bulb and experiment - without a hub or dimmer control - using your phone to drive the bulb directly via BT.
I only worked with older bulbs (via the hub) - not with that newer BT capability.

But I'm super happy with about a dozen bulbs (E27 & GU10) & multiple dimmers & motion sensors.
I intend to put some of the Hue all-in-one down-lights into a new house.
Pity they haven't really upgraded the Aphelion model - it's a bit long in the tooth.
But the Hue lights do work really well.

Key requirement is that the lights have to work with a wall dimmer. Smart is a bonus, but we want simple manual wall controls.

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

chevrolux

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#2590148 22-Oct-2020 10:22

So is there actually a product available with the "best dimming type" that can be fitted with 'standard' 230V wiring and dimmers?

I've been getting the Halcyon downlights from JA's for around $20-odd (trade price), and they seem to be OK being dimmed with a Shelly Dimmer (on that topic, should we be using trailing, or leading edge dimming?) - but every now and again they do a horrible flicker. A reboot of the Shelly fixes this.

But would quite happily spend more for something that is more stable.

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hsvhel

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#2590245 22-Oct-2020 14:49

bfginger:

There are trailing edge and leading edge dimmers. LEDs from a technical point of view should have trailing edge dimmers but dimmers are usually leading edge or "universal" set to leading edge by default (don't expect an electrician to understand the difference and change the setting). To further complicate things the quality of dimmers is often lacking or the LED was only ever tested with leading edge dimmers. Many LED downlights aren't good enough to justify fixturing over using a bayonet.

The combination of NZ made dimmer and LEDs should work for dimming based on my experience

http://www.kiwielectronics.co.nz/ptedimmers.html

https://www.switch-lighting.co.nz/

On behalf of electricians.....ouch bro...lol

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sittingduckz

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#2590257 22-Oct-2020 15:16

I have the Philips Dimmable LED (https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/philips-essential-smartbright-led-downlight-g2-10-watt-neutral-white/p/318485) with the PDL Iconic BLE dimmer and have had no issues. Stable & smooth lighting. Physical push button and a phone app

I'm not a complete idiot, I still have some parts missing.

openmedia

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#2590325 22-Oct-2020 16:55

sittingduckz:

I have the Philips Dimmable LED (https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/philips-essential-smartbright-led-downlight-g2-10-watt-neutral-white/p/318485) with the PDL Iconic BLE dimmer and have had no issues. Stable & smooth lighting. Physical push button and a phone app

Thanks for the heads up on the Philips LEDs

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

richms

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#2590352 22-Oct-2020 18:50

Cant tell if they're the same as the Philips I got from there a while back because of mitre10s insistence on only 1 crappy image of a product, but I got several to put in the eave since they were all plastic on the outside (last ones had metal and it was rusting) and the clips on them broke either when folding back the arms to put into the hole, or not long after installation.

Richard rich.ms

neb

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#2590370 22-Oct-2020 19:33

timmmay:
I got LED downlights made for dimming that recommended a type of dimmer. I tried that type, and every other type, and had various types of flickering before giving up and using them at full power. I've had no luck with LED dimming.

Neighbour, who's an EE, set up a batch of dimmers and LED lights to test them, I wasn't impressed by any of them, they ranged from bad flickering through to bad flickering only at certain settings. Possibly with a solid diffuser and restricting the settings you run them at you can get away with it.

pdh

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#2590967 23-Oct-2020 19:34

>need a wall switch/dimmer

That's why I suggested the Hue Dimmer switch.
It mounts on any wall and controls the dimming (plus on/off).
It has an on button, an off button and dim up & down buttons (hold to keep going up or down).

Way harder to explain than to use - one of the more intuitive interfaces I've enjoyed for a while.

So you can evaluate the bulb's dimming range & smoothness - via BT and a phone - and then, if & when you've decided you like it, spend a bit more to add dimmers and on/off capability.

Daynger

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#2591171 24-Oct-2020 10:31

Ledsmart MEDM dimmers are pretty good and now our go to (sparky), they dim all the way down on most fittings and dont flicker.

https://www.electricalonline.co.nz/product/9951

Froglotion

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#2591568 25-Oct-2020 08:16

Hard to beat quality, I have expensive LED throughout and dimming with pretty standard dimmers works perfectly. I think the model of dimmer was something like this (32E450TM). Recently had another one added, but it may have been the PDL equivalent, and they dim pretty dark smoothly all the way to full brightness. Not sure what LED's I have sorry, and not keen to pull one out. But I know they cost closer to $100 a pop rather than $10 a pop.

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