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Dav4122

73 posts

Master Geek


  #904447 29-Sep-2013 11:56
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Here is the info that Vector sent me about selling power back onto the grid

 

Selling back your surplus electricity
If you generate more electricity than you can use or store in your battery this power can be exported back into the local grid, possibly earning you a credit with your energy retailer. Not all retailers purchase excess electricity so we recommend you contact your energy retailer to confirm whether they are willing to purchase any excess solar energy and what their rates are for doing so. To assist you, we have collated the buy back rates inc GST for the four largest electricity retailer companies. If your retailer is not listed below, please contact them to discuss directly. Please note, if you choose to go with Contact, you will need to manually invoice them for your surplus electricity. Once you choose a retailer you will need to organise the installation of a two-way meter (capable of measuring energy import and export) with them.

Variations throughout the year
Note that the amount of solar electricity (and the resulting credit you could receive) will vary significantly throughout the year depending on several factors. For instance, more steeply pitched roofs produce more in the winter but less in the summer. While the amount of sunshine creates the largest variances for solar production, seasonal weather patterns also play a large role. Under the standard conditions of a shade-free, north facing roof and a pitch between 20 and 35 degrees, the panels of 3kW system will produce, on average, up to 12 kWh of electricity per day which is provided directly into the home to supply household energy needs. The actual amount of energy produced by the system will vary daily with the weather, location, installation specifics, losses inherent in converting electricity and the time of the year. As a result, a solar system will typically produce significantly more energy during the summer months when the sun is directly overhead and less in the winter. Under the standard conditions noted above, the 3kW system is expected to generate up to 16kW of electricity per day in the height of summer and a low of 7kW of electricity per day in mid-winter on average. In addition, your usage will vary throughout the year which will affect the amount you have as surplus.

 

Ouranos  wondered about Vector turning your batteries on at any time. I dug through the contract I signed and there is a section on electron ownership. It says Surplus electricity that cannot be stored or used at the time of generation inside the Customer's home may be exported from the Customer's Property. so I read that as Vector wanting the batteries to be charging at low network use times and being used when there is a peak in demand.

In terms of is it worth it? I would hope to break even money-wise but even if I don't it has all those intangibles going for it: good for the environment, wow factor, power during power cuts (we seem to get one at least every fortnight)

I would be keen for anyone with solar panels currently who has been keeping track of their stats/preformance to post them so we can get some real world numbers to look at - even if every house and panel is going to be slightly different





nickb800
2719 posts

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  #904467 29-Sep-2013 13:08
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Ouranos nailed it.

A few general notes:

Feed-in tariffs are usually lower than standard tariffs - so to maximise payoff you don't want to be exporting to the grid, rather consuming all of the solar power yourself.

Metering is time-specific, not net over the month - so even if you use more electricity than you generate in a month, if you aren't using electricity when your panels are generating it, then you will only earn the feed-in tariffs. Normally batteries would smooth this but it's unclear how vector is controlling this. Thus specifying a system with a equal or lower capacity than your daytime electricity consumption is preferable.

Also note that the peak system capacity is just that - peak. Panels are often designed on 1000W/m2 incoming solar radiation and thus the system peak is derived from that. In Christchurch for example, the peak in the middle of a January day is only 600W/m2 - so you would never even get near your system peak. Auckland will have a higher intensity, but it may still be half during winter.

If you want to be geek and run the numbers yourself: try NIWA SolarView to get an estimate of solar radiation. Take the spreadsheet, sum up the hours in each month and multiply by the number of days in each month. Multiply this by the panel efficiency (varies depending on radiation intensity) and multiply by inverter efficiency. Multiply this by the suitable area that you have on your roof and you have a ballpark annual generation figure.

You can take this further, multiply by your current electricity price, project electricity price increases, and use your mortgage interest rate (for example) to calculate the Net Present Value of the panel (assuming that you don't sell the house. Isn't Excel fun?

Dav4122

73 posts

Master Geek


  #904774 29-Sep-2013 21:14
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Thanks nickb800 that solar view is just what I needed to mock up some stats, cheers



mattwnz
20164 posts

Uber Geek


  #904819 29-Sep-2013 23:05
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The thing is that if you are buying these, you should also invest in lower power devices. I went to a house recently that has a windmill and battery storage, and they also had low power devices, and they were off the grid.

VectorSolar
7 posts

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VectorSolar

  #910000 8-Oct-2013 17:51
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Great to see a healthy discussion in these forums.

Some points of clarification where they may be useful:

1) MBIE references the average price of residential electricity in Auckland at .27 per kWh based on their market basket survey
2) The average electricity price inflation since 1996 has been 5.8% according to MBIE statistics.
3) Solar panels installed by Vector are warranted from the manufacturer at linear degradation of 20% over a 25 year period or .8% per year
4) Payments for energy fed back into the grid range depending on your electricity retail company with a range from .05 - .25 per kWh and an average of .17 kWh.   

It is important to note that any energy produced in excess of home requirements (or in some cases battery storage abilities) will be fed back into the grid and metered.   You will be compensated at the agreed rate for that electricity fed back by your retailer.   The regulations do not allow for cumulative or offset metering.



Of course, the Vector Solar Solution is not right for everyone and you should carefully consider your circumstances.




Vector Solar Team
0800 70 70 30
http://www.vectorsolar.co.nz

Inphinity
2780 posts

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  #910038 8-Oct-2013 19:19
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Hey VectorSolar, can you advise please how long is normal to wait after completing the online form & subsequent survey, before being contacted? I completed the details about 12 days ago and have not had a call or anything about it yet. I understand there may be some wait in regards to having an actual install done etc, but I was under the impression from the info that I did see that I could expect a call or email within a few days to at least touch base and perhaps make a booking for someone to come and assess the suitability of the house etc.

Any ideas?

richms
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  #910094 8-Oct-2013 20:33
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Also anything bigger than 5kW available?

What timeframe do they calculate the import/export over? Is it daily, hourly, over 10 mins etc? As in if I was to make something to track it, and I was at the point of almost having a negative use for the day, I could flick on some other loads to prevent it from going into a negative use, like up the hot water cylinders temperature or something. Whereas if its over a 10 min period or something then that would not be viable.




Richard rich.ms

 
 
 

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.
naggyman
697 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #910269 9-Oct-2013 10:24
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Interesting idea this. I was just thinking a few days ago that a mesh solar solution would be great for auckland.

Solar City in the US (http://www.solarcity.com/) has a similar scheme, except you purchase the power from the panels (I think)




Morgan French-Stagg

 

morgan.french.net.nz

 

 


wongtop
565 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #911263 9-Oct-2013 11:03
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richms: Also anything bigger than 5kW available?

What timeframe do they calculate the import/export over? Is it daily, hourly, over 10 mins etc? As in if I was to make something to track it, and I was at the point of almost having a negative use for the day, I could flick on some other loads to prevent it from going into a negative use, like up the hot water cylinders temperature or something. Whereas if its over a 10 min period or something then that would not be viable.


Normally the meter should be instantaneous, so that as soon as you start exporting it starts incrementing the export meter, and as soon as you start importing it starts incrementing the import meter.

VectorSolar
7 posts

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VectorSolar

  #911686 9-Oct-2013 21:23
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Inphinity: Hey VectorSolar, can you advise please how long is normal to wait after completing the online form & subsequent survey, before being contacted? I completed the details about 12 days ago and have not had a call or anything about it yet. I understand there may be some wait in regards to having an actual install done etc, but I was under the impression from the info that I did see that I could expect a call or email within a few days to at least touch base and perhaps make a booking for someone to come and assess the suitability of the house etc.

Any ideas?


Thanks for your interest in our programme.   We respond to all new registrations within two weeks (10 business days) of survey completion.   We have met this target all year as far as I am aware.   Once we have your survey / home information, the process is:

1) A customer service agent will contact you to walk you through several additional questions, verify the details, and answer your questions
2) A site assessment is booked within about 10 days depending on location
3) contract and installation scheduling.

Currently, our waiting list for installations is 2-3 months.   We have had quite a bit of interest, have a limited number of spots available, and are still in the pilot phase.   December is the current scheduling month although there could be several slots left for November.

if you private message / email me your name and email I will check on your registration to ensure you are in our system.




Vector Solar Team
0800 70 70 30
http://www.vectorsolar.co.nz

VectorSolar
7 posts

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VectorSolar

  #911691 9-Oct-2013 21:32
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richms: Also anything bigger than 5kW available?

What timeframe do they calculate the import/export over? Is it daily, hourly, over 10 mins etc? As in if I was to make something to track it, and I was at the point of almost having a negative use for the day, I could flick on some other loads to prevent it from going into a negative use, like up the hot water cylinders temperature or something. Whereas if its over a 10 min period or something then that would not be viable.


We offer 3kW, 4kW, and 5kW which are suitable for the majority of homes in Auckland.  We have optimised the cabinet / battery solution and design to keep costs manageable and quality as high as possible.  The cabinet contains a tightly integrated set of equipment which contains a maximum power point tracker (MPPT) that can manage at most 5kW solar input.

And if your next question is, can we install two cabinets, the answer is no :)

The second question is around how metering works.   In NZ, solar is net metered from your house instantaneously.   Of course, it isn't truly instantaneous but the intervals for revenue metering are very small (way, way below 10 minutes).  So you either use the power produced from your roof instantly or it goes back to the grid.

of course, in the case of the current Vector Solar solution, your battery would store up to 12.3kWh of electricity before it began exporting back to the grid.  Some of our current clients who are starting to see afternoon production exceed their battery and home requirements are scheduling appliances, pool pumps, hot water, etc to run in the midday sun / solar peak.   A good solution for everyone. 




Vector Solar Team
0800 70 70 30
http://www.vectorsolar.co.nz

Niel
3267 posts

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  #912188 10-Oct-2013 17:03
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VectorSolar, which variant of Li-ion chemistry battery does it use?




You can never have enough Volvos!


VectorSolar
7 posts

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VectorSolar

  #912228 10-Oct-2013 18:46
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Niel: VectorSolar, which variant of Li-ion chemistry battery does it use?


Good question

The battery cells that we are currently using are Lithium Ion Polymer composed of
Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC) Lithium Ion

Similar to other batteries used in electric vehicle batteries.  NMC are generally regarded as having these features compared to other LI-ION:
- Medium density
- Increased affordability over Cobalt
- Longer battery life (>5000 cycles at 80%)
- much safer and more stable

Further reading:
Battery University Comparison





Vector Solar Team
0800 70 70 30
http://www.vectorsolar.co.nz

Aredwood
3885 posts

Uber Geek


  #913277 10-Oct-2013 21:12

Just curious Vector.

Are you offering these systems to improve load management in the electricity network? Reason I am asking is that Im sure there are other cheaper ways to improve load management. Fully utilising the ripple control system being the main one.

VectorSolar
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VectorSolar

  #913346 10-Oct-2013 22:27
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Aredwood: Just curious Vector.

Are you offering these systems to improve load management in the electricity network? Reason I am asking is that Im sure there are other cheaper ways to improve load management. Fully utilising the ripple control system being the main one.


Vector is offering the pilot programme for a multitude of reasons and there is no "main reason".   In fact, a substantial appeal of the our solution is that it does offer so much value including network benefit.  Some of the key reasons include:

 

  • valued service from a trusted provider of electricity to Aucklanders
  • Vector has been researching smart network solutions for over 10 years and this is just one example
  • We believe distributed generation and customer choice are the future of energy and we are committed to providing solutions 
  • Solar is/will play a role in all networks globally and we believe that our solution is a better one for our customers and for our grid
  • Energy storage is an important and increasingly relevant enabling technology
  • There are key network benefits to storage which we looking to leverage, one of which is peak load management
Vector Solar is committed to delivering the solar trial programme.   I'm not in a position to comment on work going on in other units.   As for ripple control, this technology has been in place for many years, is widely deployed and continues to be relevant.

you can of course read more about our solution in the FAQ section of the website.




Vector Solar Team
0800 70 70 30
http://www.vectorsolar.co.nz

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