LPG home heating - Keeping bottles warm

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#1348381 21-Jul-2015 14:59

The temperature of water in summer might be 15 degrees, in winter it's probably closer to 5 degrees. That takes more energy to heat. Plus people probably have longer showers, and for example I have to use warm water brushing my teeth and washing my hands whereas in summer we just use cold.

WanaGo

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#1349464 21-Jul-2015 18:23

Got the invoice in the letter box today from Contact/Rockgas.

Nothing filled out for recordings before/after.
Standard charge applied. $97.75 inc GST.

Time to follow up with a phone call.

Anyone know of a company in Wellington who does offer this service of weighing old and refunding unused?

Regards
WanaGo

gregmcc

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#1349470 21-Jul-2015 18:50

SepticSceptic: An old electric blanket wrapped around the cylinder ? Probably not for outdoor use though.

Perhaps you could rewire the heating cords to be all in parallel, and use it from a lower voltage source.

Electricity and anything flammable are very heavily regulated in NZ, so as far as any kind of electric bottle heater unless it has specifically designed and approved for use in NZ you are at the very least asking for big trouble and at worst a fiery explosion

Athlonite

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#1349511 21-Jul-2015 20:35

you could use the same type of blanket they put on hotwater cylinders that should work to keep the bottle from getting to cold atleast

Niel

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#1349512 21-Jul-2015 20:41

You can buy a roll of thin insulated wire, wrap it around the cylinder many times, and run it off low voltage DC. Probably better to cover with a layer of insulation. Start with a bench power supply with current limiting and see how warm it gets, perhaps put a temperature probe in there to monitor the temperature. As long as the connections are not next to the hose connections, then even if you ever manage to create a spark then it will be so small that the gas probably would not ignite - not enough energy in the spark. However, I distance myself from any responsibility or liability. This is just a thought and what could be done to heat at low voltage for better safety (or less danger) than using mains for heating.

But probably don't insulate it if you don't heat it, because you will just keep the cold in and make it worse as it cools down from evaporating gas.

If you transport the cylinder yourself to an LPG refill station then they should charge you only what it gets filled with, but you will need to own the cylinder and probably also need a dangerous goods transport license.

Build a bit of a shelter around the cylinder to keep wind off it, that will raise the temperature slightly. Also a roof so that there is no ice on it.

You can never have enough Volvos!

Sidestep

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#1349533 21-Jul-2015 21:31

In Canada we used heat tape on our propane tanks, gas feed & water lines - similar to p146+ in this:
http://www.raytech.net.nz/uploads/PDF/Heating%20cable%20domestic%20and%20Commercial.pdf

Kept them working in -40C no problem.

colinuu

246 posts

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#1349566 21-Jul-2015 21:52

Niel: You can buy a roll of thin insulated wire, wrap it around the cylinder many times, and run it off low voltage DC. Probably better to cover with a layer of insulation. Start with a bench power supply with current limiting and see how warm it gets, perhaps put a temperature probe in there to monitor the temperature. As long as the connections are not next to the hose connections, then even if you ever manage to create a spark then it will be so small that the gas probably would not ignite - not enough energy in the spark. However, I distance myself from any responsibility or liability. This is just a thought and what could be done to heat at low voltage for better safety (or less danger) than using mains for heating.

Absolutely DO NOT do this! The area around the bottles and valves is an explosive gas hazardous zone, any electrical equipment used in this space is required to have the appropriate IECEx or ATEX certifications. I would hope that your gas fitter would be able to supply an approved solution. If not, then look for another gas fitter....

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WanaGo

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#1349841 22-Jul-2015 15:26

Contact/Rockgas came back to me today and pointed me to this:

http://www.vaporgas.co.nz/products/vapor-booster/

Obviously legal in NZ
I have emailed them for more information.

From Contact, if you are interested:

Thank you for your email.

I believe there is such a product available, I’ve copied a link for you. I’m not familiar with the product, its costs or if it works well or not and am not aware of any customers with this installed.

http://www.vaporgas.co.nz/products/vapor-booster/

We do find that some customers have this problem of bottles freezing but generally this is only customers in the south where the temperatures are colder, or customers whose appliances may require more cylinders to operate than they have been set up with.

For our customers in the south we do weigh the cylinders and credit back unused gas where there is more than 5kg remaining.

As I understand it we are now weighing cylinders in the Wellington area this year, as it is a colder than normal winter, I have left a message for our Wellington branch manager to confirm this for me so will let you know once I have a response. The process would be the same as for our southern customers that only gas in excess of 5kg remaining would be credited.

DizzyD

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#1349868 22-Jul-2015 15:46

WanaGo: Contact/Rockgas came back to me today and pointed me to this:

http://www.vaporgas.co.nz/products/vapor-booster/

Obviously legal in NZ
I have emailed them for more information.

WOW. It uses about 500watts of power. Leaving it on for a night will draw more power than its probably worth.
I wonder if its really worth the hassle.

Jase2985

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#1349972 22-Jul-2015 17:40

DizzyD:
WOW. It uses about 500watts of power. Leaving it on for a night will draw more power than its probably worth.
I wonder if its really worth the hassle.

put it on a timer to come on at 5am and off at 8am, shouldn't take long to warm things up.

WanaGo

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#1349997 22-Jul-2015 18:42

Yep certainly uses a bit of juice, but yes you don't need it on 24/7. I would only need it from say 9pm-11pm and then again say 5am to 7am maybe. If your bottles are in snow then maybe thats a different story.

Looks to be on a thermostat too, so I doubt it would draw 500W continuously.

Perthman

33 posts

Geek

#1350005 22-Jul-2015 19:06

WanaGo: Got the invoice in the letter box today from Contact/Rockgas.

Nothing filled out for recordings before/after.
Standard charge applied. $97.75 inc GST.

Prices from the old days.... come further south (Oamaru) and you will have the privilege of handing out $113.33 inc grab snatch per bottle

and the water is cooler so you need more energy to boil the jug..

WanaGo

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#1350010 22-Jul-2015 19:21

Yeah I use to live in Invercargill for 6 years, pre 2012.
Never had gas though.
Even 97 I find expensive.

Elgas quoted me $1.19/L from their tanker, but that cant get up our driveway safely. 45KG bottle of gas I believe is 88L capacity but only 3/4 full from memory, so ~66L - which is somewhere just under $80 of fuel. So their swap bottle delivery charge are then nearly $20.
Tanker would have been great as you then pay for what you use.

colinuu

246 posts

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#1350014 22-Jul-2015 19:39

DizzyD:
WOW. It uses about 500watts of power. Leaving it on for a night will draw more power than its probably worth.
I wonder if its really worth the hassle.

Sorry, but what nonsense.
The device is thermostatically controlled, so power is zero when it reaches the set temperature. Actual power usage will depend on several factors including ambient temperature and gas usage rate. If the temperature setting is adjustable (not clear from the brochure) then set it to the lowest that achieves your desired result, and leave it switched on until the weather warms up.

DizzyD

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#1350187 23-Jul-2015 09:02

colinuu:
DizzyD:
WOW. It uses about 500watts of power. Leaving it on for a night will draw more power than its probably worth.
I wonder if its really worth the hassle.

Sorry, but what nonsense.
The device is thermostatically controlled, so power is zero when it reaches the set temperature. Actual power usage will depend on several factors including ambient temperature and gas usage rate. If the temperature setting is adjustable (not clear from the brochure) then set it to the lowest that achieves your desired result, and leave it switched on until the weather warms up.

Did not realize it had a thermostat. Thats great.
I suppose it also depends on a number of factors. Outside temperature, size of gas bottle etc.. If its extremely cold it may be possible to see a frost line on the bottle itself. This will indicate gas level. There is a way to determine gas level on the bottle. See here:

https://www.elgas.co.nz/resources/elgas-blog/120-how-much-gas-is-left-in-the-gas-bottle

How to check how much gas is left in your gas bottle:

How full is the gas bottle? Hot water test1.
1. Do NOT use boiling water, as you would risk scalding yourself. Water from the hot water tap of your home should work fine.
2. Using care, SLOWLY pour the hot water down one side of the gas bottle. More is better, as it will make it easier to feel the difference in temperature.
3. A line of condensation may appear, indicating the gas level. If not:
3. Wait a few seconds and then run your hand down the same side of the gas bottle, where you poured the water.
4. You should feel a change of temperature at the level of the gas. If you feel no difference, the gas bottle may well be empty.

Otherwise. Weigh the bottle. The empty weight can be found on cylinder itself. Is there really a lot of gas being left behind?

A cheap quick DIY alternative to your problem would be to simply place the cylinder in a bucket of water. As long as the water does not freeze up during your winter months it should be sufficient to solve your problem. If it gets really cold then put some warm water into the bucket. The water does not need and should nor be hot.

Using electricity to solve your problem just does not really seem like a good solution to me. You just transferring the small about of saved money on gas onto your electricity bill.

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