Confused by Downlight IC rating vs Installation Instructions

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5039 posts

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#2160449 13-Jan-2019 19:12

mattwnz:

Paul1977:

Thinking about... wouldn't the laths in the lath and plaster ceiling be classed as flammable the same as a timber joist?

Possibly yes, and may depend on the thickness of the ceiling lining and whether the lathes are in relation to the heatsink. Although normally ceilings are just gib, and the heat sink would be positioned quite a bit above this. Lath and plaster is very old school, so it wouldn't be a typical install. So definitely something to consider.

This is all getting too difficult :(

gregmcc

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#2160469 13-Jan-2019 19:45

sparkz25:

gregmcc:

sparkz25:

If is was me I would need to have a look at the installation.

But It's all up to your sparky if he wants to install them, so it might pay to get him to have a look.

Im guessing these are leds? is so they would generate a lot less heat than a halogen which should never be installed to celing batten or within 100mm of it.

NZECP54 is what you need to read.

This has all the clearences and stuff that you need to know, but when we were doing installs and prewires and had no celings in we would put them where it looked best and with plenty of clearance from battens.

https://worksafe.govt.nz/dmsdocument/1583-new-zealand-electrical-code-of-practice-for-the-installation-of-recessed-luminaires-and-auxiliary-equipment-nzecp-54-2001

This ECP is 17 years old, it does not even mention IC rated light fittings and I suspect it has been superseded well and truly by AS/NZS3000:2017

looks like AS/NZS 3000/2018 is out now, just having a look through that and you are right it has superseded ECP54

It's been out for a while, but the Electricity Act hasn't cited the 2018 version, so the version to use is 2007

gregmcc

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#2160471 13-Jan-2019 19:48

mattwnz:

Contact the manufacturer and ask if it will void the warranty to have it closer to flammable elements such as joists. From what I understand, IC refers to insulation only, and only insulation that is non flammable, so you should check with the insulation manufacturer as well. Odd that the stuck the IC sticker over the logo that shows this.

Because light fittings supplied for domestic use have to meet the IC standard (AS/NZS 3000:2018), same as in Aust. but as the 2018 version isn't yet approved for use in NZ........

snnet

1410 posts

Uber Geek

#2160534 13-Jan-2019 20:15

AS/NZS3000:2018 is scheduled to take effect in NZ at the end of 2019. We tend to lag a bit behind because there are always revisions shortly after the new rules are handed out. It's to help us not have to adopt two sets of rulebooks in a short span of time.

It should be noted that if a contract / quote was signed before the new rules come into affect, the old rules apply.

As you've discovered SCB and HCB is talking about structural / flammable elements. Some fittings are 0 HCB and 0 SCB. Normally LEDs are 25mm-50mm if not 0mm in these variables. (Yes IC just refers to the insulation -- but you need to make sure the insulation is common i.e. wool, pink batts, etc - this is usually included in an explanation document / instructions from the manufacturer) -- NOT things like polystyrene which cause a can of worms in relation to running TPS cabling thru it as well as most likely not being compliant to have the IC rating.

Paul1977

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Uber Geek

#2160559 13-Jan-2019 20:40

More confused now, I just discovered an additional slip of paper in addition to the installation booklet that has a different clearance diagram. This ones looks like it might have been included specifically for AUS/NZ.

This one says the total width of the cavity needs to be minimum 100mm (as opposed to 300mm in the booklet). This is rather confusing since the the light is 125mm wide, so it makes no sense to me.

Click to enlarge:

snnet

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Uber Geek

#2160568 13-Jan-2019 20:47

Paul1977:

More confused now, I just discovered an additional slip of paper in addition to the installation booklet that has a different clearance diagram. This ones looks like it might have been included specifically for AUS/NZ.

This one says the total width of the cavity needs to be minimum 100mm (as opposed to 300mm in the booklet). This is rather confusing since the the light is 125mm wide, so it makes no sense to me.

Click to enlarge:

This is saying clearance to building elements other than approved insulation needs to be 100mm from the luminaire. It isn't clear about the driver being IC rated or not but your electrician should know what to do (there should be instructions on the driver if they differ)

So between the fitting and anything other than the gib and insulation there needs to be 100mm minimum - at least 100mm to a batten or joist or rafter

Paul1977

5039 posts

Uber Geek

#2160573 13-Jan-2019 20:54

snnet:

This is saying clearance to building elements other than approved insulation needs to be 100mm from the luminaire. It isn't clear about the driver being IC rated or not but your electrician should know what to do (there should be instructions on the driver if they differ)

So between the fitting and anything other than the gib and insulation there needs to be 100mm minimum - at least 100mm to a batten or joist or rafter

But in the diagram it's not showing that it should be 100mm from the edge of the light, it's saying 100mm right across?

Am I correct that unless it has an SCB of 0 then it is not suitable for installation in lath and plaster since the laths are timber?

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snnet

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#2160576 13-Jan-2019 21:00

Paul1977:

snnet:

This is saying clearance to building elements other than approved insulation needs to be 100mm from the luminaire. It isn't clear about the driver being IC rated or not but your electrician should know what to do (there should be instructions on the driver if they differ)

So between the fitting and anything other than the gib and insulation there needs to be 100mm minimum - at least 100mm to a batten or joist or rafter

But in the diagram it's not showing that it should be 100mm from the edge of the light, it's saying 100mm right across?

Am I correct that unless it has an SCB of 0 then it is not suitable for installation in lath and plaster since the laths are timber?

You'd need to ask the distributor that one. Most of them will say that it is fine but you best have it in writing so your electrician can attach it to their certificate of compliance. We don't rely on word of mouth because it'd be difficult to prove when insurance companies chase us and clients suddenly "forget" they told us.

The diagram isn't really what's important. Those instructions are pretty crummy. They should specifically have HCB=100mm SCB=100mm to be absolute.

Paul1977

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#2160579 13-Jan-2019 21:07

snnet:

You'd need to ask the distributor that one. Most of them will say that it is fine but you best have it in writing so your electrician can attach it to their certificate of compliance. We don't rely on word of mouth because it'd be difficult to prove when insurance companies chase us and clients suddenly "forget" they told us.

The diagram isn't really what's important. Those instructions are pretty crummy. They should specifically have HCB=100mm SCB=100mm to be absolute.

I'll see if I can find anything more helpful in the instructions, because the diagram is indeed pretty poor.

I've also emailed Philips, and I'll pop into Mitre 10 Mega tomorrow (where I purchased them) as they sometimes have a Philips lighting person on hand - plus I want to check with them that they'll refund if it turns out I can't use them.

Thanks

No SCB or HCB specifically mentioned anywhere that I can see, just the diagrams.

mattwnz

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Uber Geek

#2160700 14-Jan-2019 00:01

I think mitre 10 are pretty good with returns.

Paul1977

5039 posts

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#2160768 14-Jan-2019 10:23

mattwnz:
I think mitre 10 are pretty good with returns.

Yeah, they have a 28 day returns windows for unused items.

Paul1977

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Uber Geek

#2160770 14-Jan-2019 10:27

Spoke briefly to sparky who said with a lath and plaster ceiling you need zero clearance lights to be compliant.

snnet

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#2161137 14-Jan-2019 19:22

Paul1977: Spoke briefly to sparky who said with a lath and plaster ceiling you need zero clearance lights to be compliant.

There are plenty of 0 clearance fittings out there. What was your fixation with Philips? (if you had one)

One brand that immediately springs to mind for zero clearance is Switch Lighting. They're made in NZ. Not sure what you paid per unit but these aren't on the ultra cheap end of the scale (but not the most expensive either). I have put a lot of their different products in homes and I can't think of one failure in 5+ years.

www.switch-lighting.co.nz

Paul1977

5039 posts

Uber Geek

#2161148 14-Jan-2019 19:48

snnet:
There are plenty of 0 clearance fittings out there. What was your fixation with Philips? (if you had one)

One brand that immediately springs to mind for zero clearance is Switch Lighting. They're made in NZ. Not sure what you paid per unit but these aren't on the ultra cheap end of the scale (but not the most expensive either). I have put a lot of their different products in homes and I can't think of one failure in 5+ years.

www.switch-lighting.co.nz

The downlights are for the master bedroom. I already have Philips Hue bulbs in the living and dining rooms, so I want to keep all my smart lighting as Philips Hue for centralised management and control.

We’ll be either batoning and gibbing over the old ceiling (or pulling it down and replacing with gib) in 6 to 12 months anyway, so if I have to wait until then to install the Hue downlights it’s not the end of the world.

If I wasn’t needing smart lights to fit into my existing setup I would absolutely just use something else, but the Hue lighting is somewhat addictive - you get it in one room and suddenly want it through the whole house!

Hammerer

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#2161149 14-Jan-2019 19:50

I saw several cheap LED downlights with plugs to the driver unit and long warranties (like 20 years) so I bought very cheap when on sale. It has been a simple job to detach a defective downlight (1 of 8) and connect the spare unit I'd bought. The spare downlight confirmed that it wasn't the driver. Then I took the defective unit to the store and they immediately replaced it without testing and without any quibbling.

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