Australia and solar

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boosacnoodle

963 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2379245 20-Dec-2019 15:52

Zeon:

How hard is it to turn the market completely dynamic in terms of minute by minute power prices? Even negative power prices so if people feed into the grid during bad times they literally need to pay? Would be an incentive to make a "smart" network.

That isn't even strictly necessary. If the grid is set-up correctly you can send network signals to distributed generators (i.e. people who have solar installed at home) to stop exporting, in a similar fashion to how your hot water can be turned off remotely during periods of high network load.

kingdragonfly

11190 posts

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#2379349 20-Dec-2019 19:45

wellygary:
Dingbatt:

You forgot to include the number of people directly and indirectly employed by mining as an influencing factor as well.

According to this, Mining and oil/gas earnt Australia $280 Billion in 2018/19, it was around 50% of total exports and employed 250,000 people

it was around 8% of GDP.

https://publications.industry.gov.au/publications/resourcesandenergyquarterlymarch2019/documents/Resources-and-Energy-Quarterly-March-2019.pdf

But what's impressive is 280 billion over 250K people is around $1 million in exports per person....

I think this is slightly misleading, because I venture

a few people are getting extremely wealthy

high automation rates

Also you can get a situation like Nauru's phosphate mining, where a few people get extremely wealthy, until you've "tapped out" that resource. At least with forestry, tree will probably grow back. Once you export a ton of coal to China, it's never coming back.

It's been said that being resource rich can be more of a curse than a blessing. Just look to the MidEast and oil, or Africa and gems.

neb

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#2379370 20-Dec-2019 20:12

FineWine:
The mining sector’s power to influence Australian politics is infamous.

An Australian friend of mine summed it up with "the whole country's a giant open-cast mine for China, everything else is just supplementary industry". That was certainly exaggerating somewhat, but it does indicate the importance of mining to the economy, and why it has such an undue influence.

MadEngineer

4274 posts

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#2379380 20-Dec-2019 20:57

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve

Solar is great, except as demonstrated above where everyone is making their own electricity during the day so paying less for their power supply, yet demanding more and more from the same network to supply more and more capacity as the sun goes down.

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

elpenguino

3421 posts

Uber Geek

#2379393 20-Dec-2019 21:55

It's more difficult for the ozzies to cope with solar because they have a lot of thermal base load - NZ is better off with hydro which can be spun up and down without the same delay.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

TwoSeven

1623 posts

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#2379404 20-Dec-2019 22:38

MadEngineer: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve

Solar is great, except as demonstrated above where everyone is making their own electricity during the day so paying less for their power supply, yet demanding more and more from the same network to supply more and more capacity as the sun goes down.

I think the reality of solar is that it isn't just used by itself but with other renewables. Also, many people tend to use solar batteries - which have the capability to store energy to periods when generation isnt available.

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Rikkitic

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#2379520 21-Dec-2019 10:06

I have to wonder what would happen with renewables in Oz if they received the same level of investment that the fossil industry does.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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kingdragonfly

11190 posts

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#2379530 21-Dec-2019 10:26

Australian fossil fuel subsidies amount to $1,198 per person per year.

Yeah, that's a lot of solar panels and energy storage.

MadEngineer

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#2379560 21-Dec-2019 11:13

TwoSeven:

MadEngineer: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve

Solar is great, except as demonstrated above where everyone is making their own electricity during the day so paying less for their power supply, yet demanding more and more from the same network to supply more and more capacity as the sun goes down.

I think the reality of solar is that it isn't just used by itself but with other renewables. Also, many people tend to use solar batteries - which have the capability to store energy to periods when generation isnt available.

most people do not use batteries with grid tied solar.

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

Jase2985

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#2379628 21-Dec-2019 13:08

kingdragonfly: Australian fossil fuel subsidies amount to $1,198 per person per year.

Yeah, that's a lot of solar panels and energy storage.

for a house of 4 thats a small solar system on the roof. over 3 years thats a solar system + battery.

neb

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#2379638 21-Dec-2019 14:19

kingdragonfly: Australian fossil fuel subsidies amount to $1,198 per person per year.

Holy *bleep*, that's insane! I knew the US subsidised but I didn't know many (most?) other countries did as well. So the taxpayer is paying some of the richest corporations on the planet to continue to destroy the environment? At least NZ is moving in the right direction.

FineWine

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Nurse (R)

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#2385221 4-Jan-2020 22:37

FineWine:

WHY - because of the fossil fuel mining and power industry lobbyists.

The mining sector’s power to influence Australian politics is infamous. Experts and environmentalists say the industry’s power is derived from political donations, gifts, advertising, paid lobbyists, frequent access and close political networks. All these mining multinationals have run sophisticated operations to kill off climate action in Australia and they continue to wield day-to-day influence over federal and state governments. The Rudd government even tried to introduce a mining supertax, well we know how that ended - bye bye Rudd government.

Until Australia has strong politicians with a real strong public mandate to rein in the mining and power industry there will be no meaningful action on reducing greenhouse gas emissions and the introduction of any real climate changing policies in Australia.

Reading todays Sydney Morning Herald and came across this article: Opinion: The world has made the link between Australian coal, fires and climate

Some Quotes

"Nick O'Malley of SMH - In international eyes, our leaders have been found wanting not only in planning for such a catastrophe, and not just for the failure of some to match the tenacious heroism of our volunteers, but for their refusal to accept the catastrophic reality of climate change and its link with the burning of coal."

"The New York Times was reporting that “the fires have fueled anger at Australia’s Prime Minister, Scott Morrison, who has downplayed the role of global warming, opposed measures to combat climate change and rejected additional funding for firefighters. After widespread ridicule, last month he cut short a vacation during the crisis, a trip that critics said showed he did not take the disaster seriously enough.”.

"CNN carried a report that said: “Experts say climate change has worsened the scale and impact of the fires, and many have accused the Morrison administration of doing little to address the climate crisis."

"English broadcaster Piers Morgan, normally a reliable friend to populist conservatives, tweeted “he got what he deserved ... absolutely unconscionable for a Prime Minister to holiday in Hawaii as his nation burns”.

But most telling is: "It noted that Australia “releases 1.3 per cent of the world's greenhouse gases ... its population accounts for 0.3 per cent of the world's inhabitants”.

"Australia’s performance in Madrid and of the bushfires Australia is now seen in a different, darker light across Europe. Where once it existed in the popular imagination as a place of almost pristine natural beauty, it is now viewed as the Western nation most ravaged by climate change. It’s reputation as a global citizen has been irrevocably tarnished."

AND

“The global media has made a link between Australia’s protection of its coal industry and its climate policy."

Please read the entire article for better context of the above quotes.

In a side note; Tonights NZ Herald article: Celebrities donate to Australian bushfires

Pink donates $500,000

Put that against what ScoMo has just pledged: "The government committed an additional $20 million to lease additional fire-fighting aircraft, available within the next two weeks, to assist state forces over the long fire season ahead."

And put that up against the Billions they earn from the mining sector then Pinks donation is staggering.

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

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