Best replacement toilet seat / how about bidet toilet seat?

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30 posts

Geek

#3064355 16-Apr-2023 18:33

OwenWatson:

We got the Cleanlet over a year ago. Very satisfied but the drier is pretty ineffectual; we use a hair drier instead.

Is there a specifications page in the manual that says how powerful it is? I can't seem to find one online, curious what the specification for the dryer would be relative to the others I've researched. A photo of the spec page would be helpful.

OwenWatson:

The Cleanlet claims to have a legal backflow valve; not sure if any others on the market offer this.

The sales material seems to push this fact hard, but they don't back it up with any details on the backflow they've put in the device. Was there any indication of where it is, or what type it is? Anything in a certificate or manual provided?

billgates

4705 posts

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#3064356 16-Apr-2023 18:38

What is the cheapest and recommended backflow protection device that can be installed? When we built our home, we got both a power point and separate water point for the future bidet's seats in our toilet locations.

Do whatever you want to do man.

OwenWatson

93 posts

Master Geek

#3064361 16-Apr-2023 19:17

When I looked at it it seemed as though the only valves available were for the whole of the house, not individual devices, and costing $$. Updates welcome!

OwenWatson

93 posts

Master Geek

#3064363 16-Apr-2023 19:23

The physics of the seat (limited room in the seat, angle) dictate the drying speed. I think an exernal drier will always be better.
Can't find the manual. The distributor should send you a spec sheet, no?

colinbowern

30 posts

Geek

#3065560 19-Apr-2023 13:55

OwenWatson:

Can't find the manual. The distributor should send you a spec sheet, no?

They didn't. I haven't followed up to ask, but given the lack of public, upfront pricing, I wasn't too hopeful.

colinbowern

30 posts

Geek

#3065561 19-Apr-2023 13:56

On the backflow device side - here's the feedback I received from Jim McGibbon, Backflow Lead: Water Quality Team at Watercare, when I asked for clarification on whether a high hazard protection device is required.

Bidets are a thorny issue for water quality concerns and you are quite correct that a high hazard protection is required.

There are two issues with this.
Firstly, bidets installed in the home do not have to be verified annually nor have any internal backflow device inspected after the install. There is no legal statute that requires this. There’s a legal obligation for correct installation but MBIE have decreed that no residential system (other than cable cars) needs a compliance schedule.
Second, bidets may have compliance with watermark but may not have robust backflow prevention should the parts begin to wear out or be circumvented by human error.

As a person who deals with backflow prevention every day, my advice to you would be to install a small RPZ or other high hazard device on the pipework and have this tested annually by a qualified person. This would offer some protection to our public network but most importantly would keep your own internal network safe from contamination and therefore safeguard your health.
We generally do not install a testable backflow preventer on residential boundaries unless there is untreated water tank or irrigation pipework connected to the potable supply.

OwenWatson

93 posts

Master Geek

#3065772 19-Apr-2023 17:47

New York Times' Wirecutter site did a bidet comparison a few weeks ago; their best buy was the Toto but the models they recommend are not available in NZ AFAIK.

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Journeyman

1187 posts

Uber Geek

#3065830 19-Apr-2023 21:47

Those RPZs look expensive. Has anyone here had one installed?

colinbowern

30 posts

Geek

#3067367 23-Apr-2023 14:14

Resources I've been collecting on backflow prevention:

My current thinking is that a vacuum breaker or double check are the most I'll need for this application given the pressure involved. The Cleanlet claim that they have a built-in protection would only make sense if it that were a vacuum breaker.

I've reached out to the local plumber for their advice and come back with what they recommend. If anyone has photos of their installs or specifics of what they did for backflow prevention that would be helpful.

colinbowern

30 posts

Geek

#3069227 29-Apr-2023 16:06

Here is the summary of my research on backflow prevention for bidet seats. I'm not a plumber, backflow prevention specialist, or have any related qualification - so don't treat this as advice, it is for information purposes only.

For bidets the primary backflow concern is backsiphoning, not backpressure. The construction industry has an overview of the topic if you want to learn more about it. Backsiphoning occurs when the pressure in the public authority potable water supply’s supply falls below atmospheric pressure, thus sucking water from the customer’s internal plumbing system into the water supply main.

According to G12/AS1 the acceptable solution for high-hazard backsipohange are:

Air Gap (AG)
Reduced Pressure Zone Device (RPZD)
Pressure Type Vacuum Breaker (PVB)
Atmospheric Vacuum Breaker (AVB)

You can learn more about these devices from:

RPZD, PVB, and AVB must be made to the specifications in AS/NZ 2845.

RPZD, PVB must have test points. AVB must have a test-able. AS/NZS 2845.3 covers how they get tested. I found an older draft of the testing specification to get a sense of what testing involves. Testing is important where there is risk of backpressure (aka not in this scenario), or the line is subject to continuous pressure.

RPZD is may be prescribed as it covers high hazard in all categories and is often recommended as a blanket “fixes all” solution to backflow by people who might not fully understand the rules. If you want to read a debate on whether RPZD is truly needed, check out this thread.

Because of the complicated nature of the regulations and differences in regional guidance, don't expect clear guidance from the vendor of your product. For New Zealand, the compliance appears to wrapped up mainly by G12 / AS1 which then references other specifications. But standards are hard, and can be confusing for even those who are responsible for understanding them for their job.

Pro-Switch (formerly Australian Certification Services) produced a report on the fault tolerance of toilet seat bidets, including comparing with similar devices. I'll try to attach it to this post. The most likely failure scenario is the toilet pan fills to overflow level, the nozzles are submerged in water, and an upstream pressure differential results in backsiphoning. For this to occur the following has to be in fault condition:

Toilet pan outlet becomes blocked
User flushes continuously to fill toilet pan to overflow (rim level)
User is sitting on toilet seat
Bidet nozzles is in fault condition in extended condition
Internal solenoid valve fouled open
Included check valves (when included) to be fouled/failed in open position
Internal air gap breached (when included)
Internal vacuum breaker (when included) inoperable
Upstream pressure differential

What I'm concluding based on my research is that I will choose a device with built-in backflow prevention such as an air gap or vacuum breaker, and I will supplement it with an external vacuum breaker at the water source for good measure.

Taking a cue from a paper that explores backflow risk assessments I am making this decision based on a high consequence if it were to happen, and a low likelihood of happening based on failure scenario. While I'm using multiple backflow prevention devices, I recognize they will all be untestable and will eventually fail. My hope is that the bidet seat itself will fail first in other ways, and when it does I'll change all of the protection devices.

If I were doing a new build, I would consider an RPZD. I would have it installed in appropriate location so lines that supply external water taps and toilets are covered. That would give me flexibility to install bidets and irrigation, covering all of those scenarios with a testable backflow prevention device.

Be sure to look at your regional guidance for backflow prevention for any additional notes as the type of water system and area you are in may create other conditions that change the approach.

Related specifications:

G12/AS1
AS/NZS 2845.1:2022 (paywall)
AS/NZS 2845.3:2020 (paywall)
AS/NZS 3500.1:2021 (paywall)
- Summary of what changes in the 2021 edition at the bottom - https://www.standards.govt.nz/news-and-updates/plumbing-and-drainage-joint-standards-get-an-overhaul/
WMTS-051:2021

colinbowern

30 posts

Geek

#3075870 13-May-2023 17:36

Here is the summary of my research on bidet seats. I'm not a plumber, or have any related qualification - so don't treat this as advice, it is for information purposes only.

The bidet retail shopping experience needs a lot of work. It took a lot of work to build confidence in the selection and understand the installation requirements. For example:

Difficult to discern makers from re-badged brands.
Retailers need to provide more information to make a comparison between models.
Prices can vary widely without clear reason.
Product manuals are difficult to find.
Some retailers pitch DIY install, which isn't appropriate for city water supply.
Some retailers answer questions with partial information, or scare tactics to dissuade you from looking elsewhere ("if you don't choose us you'll need a super expensive RPZD!")

As you are making a selection, beyond features, there are three aspects to consider:

Fitting - Toilet bases have different shapes - elongated, D-shaped, etc... Some makes, like Toto, have their own sizing that would make finding compatible products a real challenge. I've got an American Standard Cygnet Neu Square Cistern Back to Wall Toilet Suite with Top Inlet and Soft Close Seat. I prefer to avoid re-tiling the bathroom wall and floor to replace it. If I were remodeling I would consider an integrated option like the Toto Neorest which have good review resources (and I understand there are a few celebrity types who swear by it).

Position of Power and Water Source - Second piece to pay attention to is the positioning of water and power source. Some units have power and water on separate sides, others on the same. Unless you have a gap behind your toilet (not a back-to-wall unit), there won't be an option to change the power cord location to the other side. I wish I had done this research before I had power installed as it would allow for more options.

Backflow Prevention - See my previous post for my research on the topic. Products like Englefield Bidet Seat have no built-in backflow prevention. Understanding whether there was anything took reading manuals, reviewing the WaterMark WMTS-051 registrations, and contacting makers.

I wanted to avoid re-badged product, so I looked at who the global makers are in the market. I then scanned the WaterMark WMTS-051 registrations. Looking at the toilet douche seat certificates issued. Given the retailer challenges noted above, it is a better starting point than searching the web. From the 33 active certificates I went looking for what looked like the most established retailer. I expanded my search to include AU retailers offering to ship given overlapping compliance standards. I realize this puts me in a grey area for warranty and the consumer guarantees act, but if it gets me the features and quality I want it is a risk I am willing to take.

The brands I found available, that offered models with built-in AS2845 backflow prevention:

Toto
Coway
Daewon
Roca
Tejjer (re-badged as Seren, Kogan)

If you want a buyers guide to bidet features check out this post from ManyBidets. I found Daewon's product demo video and how it works inside video also very helpful. Looking at the models available in the AU/NZ region I began to narrow the list down. As my partner will joke about, of course I created a spreadsheet to compare models.

On a feature level, the $1-2k range is where I found most of what I wanted:

Stainless steel nozzle
Automatic nozzle cleaning
Different nozzle positions, pressure levels, and wide spray
On-demand water heating
Remote Control

From what I read the air dryers in most units are like a hair dryer on low settings, so I ignored that as a decision point.

I have power pre-installed on the seated left position which limits my selection unless I want to pay to have it moved. While part of me wants to go Toto Neorest, it's hard to justify the $10k+ NZD for the unit, plus plumbing + electrical (+ tile) work.

I'm based in Auckland, so I can stop into The Bidet Shop in Onehunga to see the Coway BA13B in person.

The retailer has been very helpful and forthcoming with information about the product. Intellicorp (the AU/NZ distributor) has provided the most detailed product documentation when compared to others. The Bidet Shop's AU site is a bit more polished than the NZ one. Looking up the company details, the NZ retailer, AU retailer, and AU/NZ distributor all appear to be related. The risk I am taking is Coway doesn't appear to have any other supply channels in NZ, so a single sourced product means if they go away, I'm left hoping that their NZ corporate site actually offers local support.

Gurezaemon

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#3075875 13-May-2023 17:46

Wow. Very impressive research.

Two nagging things I've noticed about my cheapy Kogan one (which otherwise works great) is that the direction of the text on the controller next to the seat is aligned for when you're facing the toilet, rather than for when you're sitting trying to read the tiny text. The other thing is the brightness of the LEDs, which can sometimes overwhelm the text, making it even harder to make out.

These issues probably won't exist for less budget models, but they're extra data points if this sort of thing bothers you.

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colinbowern

30 posts

Geek

#3075879 13-May-2023 17:55

Gurezaemon:

Wow. Very impressive research.

Two nagging things I've noticed about my cheapy Kogan one (which otherwise works great) is that the direction of the text on the controller next to the seat is aligned for when you're facing the toilet, rather than for when you're sitting trying to read the tiny text. The other thing is the brightness of the LEDs, which can sometimes overwhelm the text, making it even harder to make out.

These issues probably won't exist for less budget models, but they're extra data points if this sort of thing bothers you.

Thanks for that! Kogan and Seren appear to re-badge the Tejjer brand from what I saw in the Watermark database. I'll take a closer look at the LED brightness and text when I check out the Coway models.

Gurezaemon

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#3075883 13-May-2023 18:08

Also, another data point to add - the presence/absence of a night light.

A tiny LED lighting up the bowl is wonderful in the middle of the night when you don't want to turn anything brighter on and have to wake up any more than necessary.

Get your business seen overseas - Nexus Translations

netd

21 posts

Geek

#3089570 13-Jun-2023 17:27

Interesting - I've got a Vogue Sana from Tradedepot waiting to be installed (just as soon as they get around to sending me a replacement for the cracked cistern it arrived with). Checking the Watermark cert number on the website linked above says it is made by Deahenv.

It also says on the Watermark sticker that "This douche seat is supplied with a backflow protection device complying with AS/NZS 3500.1. No further backflow prevention is required for connection to the water supply".

I bought it to replace my 3 year old Kogan seat that has rapidly disintegrated over the last few months (has cracked right through, and is now held together by duct tape).

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