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Paul1977

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  #2721581 10-Jun-2021 08:34
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We have those Holyoake Eco diffusers in the room with a 2.4 stud. Our biggest issue is they make dreadful creaking noises because of temperature changes. Installers have tried various things to resolve, but nothing has worked yet. This is very noticeable in a quiet bedroom.

They indicated they don’t often get this complaint, but a friend who is looking at a new system commented yesterday that someone else had recommended against the for this same reason.

But at the moment that’s the least of my problems, so will deal with that once the bigger issues are sorted.

I was wondering about something like this:

https://www.holyoake.com/product-details/SFRA_item.html?reg=NZ&ref_cat_id=Swirl-Diffusers



Paul1977

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  #2721586 10-Jun-2021 08:46
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@TechE2020 I found the manual in the attic last night and confirmed it’s set to the factory setting of 50 Pa.

I’m not going to change it myself, as I don’t want the installers saying changes I’ve made have caused problems.

I’m comfortable investigating things, but know I’m not knowledgeable enough to change settings I don’t fully understand - especially when there could be something else going on (like a leak).

timmmay
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  #2721588 10-Jun-2021 08:56
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Paul1977: We have those Holyoake Eco diffusers in the room with a 2.4 stud. Our biggest issue is they make dreadful creaking noises because of temperature changes. Installers have tried various things to resolve, but nothing has worked yet. This is very noticeable in a quiet bedroom.

They indicated they don’t often get this complaint, but a friend who is looking at a new system commented yesterday that someone else had recommended against the for this same reason.

But at the moment that’s the least of my problems, so will deal with that once the bigger issues are sorted.

I was wondering about something like this:

https://www.holyoake.com/product-details/SFRA_item.html?reg=NZ&ref_cat_id=Swirl-Diffusers

 

I don't know if that's ideal. The description seems to say it pushes air horizontally "The SFRA diffusers are designed to produce rapid temperature equalisation, via a horizontal radial air pattern, achieved with a turbulent high induction swirl and are ideally suited for applications with increased temperature differentials". Given most people have ceiling supply and extraction, and in NZ we heat much more than we cool, I suggest that pushing air downwards to mix well with the cooler air room is really important. That's what I found anyway.

 

The two diffusers I linked to in the last post are probably going to be more effective at pushing air downwards to prevent stratification and encourage mixing. I did also just see the Holyoake Model CRA-T, I've copied the description below. It looks like it has parts that move based on the temperature of the supply air so it pushes cold air across the ceiling so it falls down to the ground, but push warm air downwards. It looks it should be much more effective than the other one, but the claim on the other Holyoake with the holes on it doesn't live up to the marketing so I'd be a bit cautious. I note it's powder coated aluminum so is probably more expensive, and I wonder how it will go regarding expansion noises. I live about 10 minutes drive from a Holyoake branch so I could pop in for a look some time.

 

Circular Louvred Face Ceiling Diffusers shall be Holyoake Model CRA-T with thermal core adjustment. Diffusers shall be of spun aluminium construction with Holyoake thermal power pill. With supply air temperatures below 24 degree the supply air pattern is diffused horizontally. With supply air temperatures above 28 degrees the core is automatically lifted to produce a supply air pattern diffused vertically. Diffusers shall be finished in powder coat and fitted with accessories and dampers where indicated as manufactured by Holyoake.

 

I did find the Holyoake people quite helpful when I called to discuss the other diffusers not working as well as they should. They said they tested them in that office, with smoke being pushed through, and they could see the air being pushed downwards, but they didn't say what percentage went down and didn't seem concerned about the noise.




Paul1977

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  #2722591 10-Jun-2021 10:10
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The fins looked about 45 degrees, so I figured it would create a downward swirl at 45 degrees.

The other ones you linked are very expensive, I contacted Holyoke about them. I don’t remember how much, but it enough that it would be an absolute last resort!

Other than the creaking, I get no noise from the eco diffusers - i.e. not air noise.

I think this is partly to do with relatively large duct size, and partly to do with the airflow issues I’m having.

Since we only have these in rooms with a 2.4 stud I’m not sure is stratification is as much of a concern for us. Not worth thinking about for me until other issues are resolved.

The creaking is an issue though. First they said it was the thermal spring and silicone spray would fix. Made no difference, and I even removed the thermal spring entirely and creaking persisted. I removed the entire centre disc part, and the creaking persisted. Then they said it needed spacers between the diffusers and gib, put those in and creaking persisted. Then they said put the spacers on the other side of the gib, did that and the creaking persisted.

I have an idea of my own that haven’t tried yet. I think the noise is because spring-loaded clips hold against the gib with a good amount of force, as the plastic expand/contracts tension builds up on the clips until it gets too much and they “slip” causing sudden movement in the plastic. I thought maybe some thick pipe lagging to cushion between the clip and the gib would remove the friction and allow a little movement without any tension building up. Haven’t tried yet.

timmmay
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  #2723584 10-Jun-2021 10:29
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Has anyone got any hard data on whether it's worth upgrading from R0.6 to R1.0 ducting? Or insulating outside the ducting? I'm going to give it a shot...

 

This page gives some charts for heat loss in insulated pipes. Looking at R0.6 ducting in my house the insulation thickness looked to be about 10mm to me, and I'm guessing R1.0 would be about 20mm - probably less but it's an estimate. I'm assuming about a 40 degree difference between heated air and ceiling cavity air temperatures. I will have about 30m ducting in my house, some 200mm some 300mm. Most houses will have quite a bit more ducting, maybe even 50 - 100m. Heat loss for my house with 30m of ducting would then be:

 

  • R0.6: 100w/meter = 3kw
  • R1.0: 60w/meter = 1.8kw
  • 40mm insulation: 25w/m = 0.75kw

Given we are getting a 10kw outdoor unit that means we will lose between 18% and 30% of the heat generated with the insulated pipes easily available. So going to R1.0 ducting saves 1.2kw, and insulating outside the ducting saves about the same again. 2kw of heat x 10 hours a day x 200 days a year x 20c / kw x 0.5 duty cycle (running at half power) would mean you're paying about $400 a year at R0.6, $240 at R1.0, and $150 a year or less if you do external insulation according to my calculations, which are quite likely to be incorrect.

 

Insulating around 200mm ducting you would need 630mm insulation width, 300mm ducting (which I think can be used for main trunks then split) would need insulation 950mm wide. Earthwool rolls are 580mm wide, so not quite wide enough to go around 200mm ducting, but it would at least go over the top. For 300mm you would probably need to buy sheets of standard fiberglass insulation, even R1.8 would be plenty at it's about 90mm thick. 24 pieces of R1.8 insulation would cost $86 and would put on sideways would cover 10m of ducting, but you'd have to find a way to fasten it there, possibly duct tape, but it would be a horrible job. So it would cost about $250 to insulate 30m of ducting, plus time or labor costs. Given the heat loss this indicates that adding insulation to the pipes, either using R1.0 pipes or insulating outside the pipes, makes sense. If you're going to do external insulation there's no point upgrading to R1.0 pipes. In the US they use spray on insulation for hard ducting, but I doubt that's possible for flexible ducting.

 

A risk of insulation is putting pressure on the ducting, reducing airflow.

 

@Paul1977 this heat loss from the ducting could explain the 2 degree rise you're seeing in your ceiling cavity. If you have 30m of R0.6 ducting it could be losing 3kw, which is more than a fan heater produces.

 

 


timmmay
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  #2723588 10-Jun-2021 10:34
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Paul1977: The fins looked about 45 degrees, so I figured it would create a downward swirl at 45 degrees.

The other ones you linked are very expensive, I contacted Holyoke about them. I don’t remember how much, but it enough that it would be an absolute last resort!

Other than the creaking, I get no noise from the eco diffusers - i.e. not air noise.

I think this is partly to do with relatively large duct size, and partly to do with the airflow issues I’m having.

Since we only have these in rooms with a 2.4 stud I’m not sure is stratification is as much of a concern for us. Not worth thinking about for me until other issues are resolved.

The creaking is an issue though. First they said it was the thermal spring and silicone spray would fix. Made no difference, and I even removed the thermal spring entirely and creaking persisted. I removed the entire centre disc part, and the creaking persisted. Then they said it needed spacers between the diffusers and gib, put those in and creaking persisted. Then they said put the spacers on the other side of the gib, did that and the creaking persisted.

I have an idea of my own that haven’t tried yet. I think the noise is because spring-loaded clips hold against the gib with a good amount of force, as the plastic expand/contracts tension builds up on the clips until it gets too much and they “slip” causing sudden movement in the plastic. I thought maybe some thick pipe lagging to cushion between the clip and the gib would remove the friction and allow a little movement without any tension building up. Haven’t tried yet.

 

Ah that's a shame about the expensive diffusers. The square ones I linked to aren't that expensive. If you're near an HVAC store I'd go have a look. If the swirly ones are 45 degrees they might do ok as well, if they're less more like 20 - 30 degrees I'd avoid them. Given I have the Holyoake diffusers with the holes I'm thinking when the new system goes in we might change just one vent to start, see how it goes, then get the others changed - might not be practical.

 

Interesting you get on noise from your eco diffusers. Airflow rates makes a big difference to noise, I wonder if we have higher air pressure. Well installed, straight ducting also makes a surprisingly large impact on noise, having no sharp bends, our previous ducting was really not well installed.

 

I assume the creaking noise was from the plastic expanding and contracting. We only really heard it late at night after the system was turned off and everything was cooling down, and while it was slightly annoying it wasn't really bothering us. Funny how different noises bother different people, though it could be the noises are different between systems.


Paul1977

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  #2723595 10-Jun-2021 10:51
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timmmay:

@Paul1977 this heat loss from the ducting could explain the 2 degree rise you're seeing in your ceiling cavity. If you have 30m of R0.6 ducting it could be losing 3kw, which is more than a fan heater produces.


 



Ours is R1.0 ducting, and while that’s not an amazing rating it’s still 40% less energy loss that R0.6. That’s not an insignificant difference.

Radiant heat loss could perhaps explain it, but the temperature increase is very rapid and the probe is several meters away from the heat pump or any ducting.

We don’t get a temperature increase anywhere near that fast inside the house.

At the very least I think it needs to be investigated.

 
 
 

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Paul1977

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  #2723599 10-Jun-2021 11:08
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timmmay:


Interesting you get on noise from your eco diffusers. Airflow rates makes a big difference to noise, I wonder if we have higher air pressure. Well installed, straight ducting also makes a surprisingly large impact on noise, having no sharp bends, our previous ducting was really not well installed.


I assume the creaking noise was from the plastic expanding and contracting. We only really heard it late at night after the system was turned off and everything was cooling down, and while it was slightly annoying it wasn't really bothering us. Funny how different noises bother different people, though it could be the noises are different between systems.



Ours could be worse because we have the Lossnay as well, which means when not heating the fan is still circulating air. This would result in a more rapid temperature changes in the plastic.

We’re light sleepers, and it’s loud enough to wake us when the heat comes on in the morning.

I’m not looking at changing these unless the creaking can’t be sorted, or unless they prove to be part of the other problems. With a 2.8m stud I can see why you’d have trouble with them, but probably a good idea to just try changing one first as a test.

timmmay
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  #2723654 10-Jun-2021 11:28
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Paul1977:

Ours could be worse because we have the Lossnay as well, which means when not heating the fan is still circulating air. This would result in a more rapid temperature changes in the plastic.

We’re light sleepers, and it’s loud enough to wake us when the heat comes on in the morning.

I’m not looking at changing these unless the creaking can’t be sorted, or unless they prove to be part of the other problems. With a 2.8m stud I can see why you’d have trouble with them, but probably a good idea to just try changing one first as a test.

 

You do have a lot of surface area that's quite warm, maybe 50 degrees. It could be that it's acting like a huge radiator. I've measured the surface temp of oil heater as about 90 - 100 degrees C and it's quite a small surface area, so 50 degrees with a surface area 100X greater could have a significant effect. Maybe you could find an article on how to calculate it out. I wouldn't discount it anyway.

 

To reduce air noise through a vent you can use a manual damper to reduce the air flow, in series with any automated dampers. We had our bedrooms on about 30% airflow, they were silent. This won't help with creaking noises obviously, just air noises. Because we turned all the bedroom dampers down we probably got a lot more airflow through our lounge, making the vents louder.

 

The eco diffusers we have are a good idea in theory, but they really need to be able to redirect the majority of the air down instead of sideways to be effective, like the more expensive aluminum ones do. How much did the Holyoake ones that did that cost?

 

 


TechE2020
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  #2723659 10-Jun-2021 11:34
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@TechE2020 you seem to be extremely knowledgeable about this and extremely technical, are you an HVAC engineer or similar? Do you have any thoughts on difffuser selection, both style but diffuser size? I have a higher 2.8m stud, ceiling return, diffusers are not quite over our sofa but not far off, I want to ensure the heat reaches the floor without sitting in a huge downdraft. The downjet would blow air on us, but the square diffuser look like they could blow air down but not directly at us. Blizzard in Wellington seem good but they seem to use more "rule of thumb" than any calculations about diffuser size as far as I can tell. I'm getting a Daikin 10kw with an Airtouch4, it's to heat 3 bedrooms (one usually turned off) and a lounge.

 

 

No, not an HVAC engineer.  I have just owned 6 different homes all with different HVAC problems.  At house number 5, after dealing with about 10 different HVAC companies all with wildly different designs, I ended up getting it designed by an HVAC engineer and that design wouldn't fit physically, so I adapted the design to a medium-velocity system that ran duct velocities of 8 m/s.  Worked great.  With home number 6, I cheated by skipping the load calculations since it had mini-splits in it, so I knew what sized worked already.

 

 

 

For supply and return registers, I see a lot of poor placement.  There are two fundamental approaches to the designs. The first is to forcibly mix the air which is the traditional HVAC approach.  The other is to do displacement ventilation which is similar to a heat transfer system.  The best option IMHO is a combination of the two.  Place the supply vents in front of windows and put the return in a hallway as far away from the supply vents as possible.  This will do mixing in the supply room and displacement to the rest of the house.  Jet-style vents are only really needed once you get into higher ceiling heights in the 3.5 to 4m range, otherwise they will be uncomfortable when you are close to them.  If you need to use them, put them near windows and doors so you are never sitting directly under them.

 

Have a read through this for some ideas:  https://blog.priceindustries.com/improve-air-quality-in-schools-with-displacement-ventilation

 

Displacement ventilation vs mixing ventilation

 

 

 

 


timmmay
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  #2723701 10-Jun-2021 12:58
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Interesting, thanks @TechE2020 . Displacement ventilation is probably a lot easier to do in a new build, and is more difficult to retrofit as you need some fairly large ducts running down into the body of the house.

 

The problem we have is heat stratification, because supply and return are both in the ceiling. To combat that, in the bedrooms we put in wall grills down low, so the air is drawn across the room, which work quite well. Better diffusers might help a bit there, but not heaps.

 

The lounge is a bigger problem with stratification. The supply is in two corners, not directly above sofas but only displaced by 1m. The return is about 5m away in the hallway on the ceiling. Because the diffusers push most of the air sideways I can tell with my hand in the air currents any with an IR thermometer that the air goes straight across the ceiling, through the very wide entry way, and out the return vent. Over time the heat does come down a bit, but not far. That's I think we need to actively push the air down towards the floor, so it can then be drawn across the room the whole way from the floor to the ceiling and rise back up.

 

When we took the center of the diffusers out the column of air just missed the sofa, but it did work much better. If we put a downjet in the lounge it will blow directly on us, which is why I think we'll be better off with the square directional diffusers I put in this post, that way I can push the air towards the parts of the rooms we're not sitting in, including pushing air down the walls to be drawn away by the return vent.  Based on the displacement ventilation I guess we don't really need to forcably mix the air as such, we just need to make sure the air is pushed down, then as the warmer air is drawn across the room it should naturally mix.

 

I think the only decisions left for my system are the size of the diffusers (Blizzard said 200mm but I might like to go larger to make them quieter) and the location of the indoor unit and ductwork. I just have to get Blizzard to come out to have a chat about the design. Do you have any experience with diffuser size with regards to noise and air mixing?


TechE2020
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  #2723710 10-Jun-2021 13:41
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Displacement ventilation is probably a lot easier to do in a new build, and is more difficult to retrofit as you need some fairly large ducts running down into the body of the house.

 

The problem we have is heat stratification, because supply and return are both in the ceiling. To combat that, in the bedrooms we put in wall grills down low, so the air is drawn across the room, which work quite well. Better diffusers might help a bit there, but not heaps.

 

The lounge is a bigger problem with stratification. The supply is in two corners, not directly above sofas but only displaced by 1m. The return is about 5m away in the hallway on the ceiling. Because the diffusers push most of the air sideways I can tell with my hand in the air currents any with an IR thermometer that the air goes straight across the ceiling, through the very wide entry way, and out the return vent. Over time the heat does come down a bit, but not far. That's I think we need to actively push the air down towards the floor, so it can then be drawn across the room the whole way from the floor to the ceiling and rise back up.

 

 

The idea is really just to have the air travel as far as possible from supply to return so that it mixes naturally.  The article was a bit more specific on the location of the vents, but in my experience that doesn't matter much if you have good turbulent airflow and you are blowing the air counter to how it would normally stratify.

 

The supply location and returns 5m away are good from a location standpoint.

 

 

When we took the center of the diffusers out the column of air just missed the sofa, but it did work much better. If we put a downjet in the lounge it will blow directly on us, which is why I think we'll be better off with the square directional diffusers I put in this post, that way I can push the air towards the parts of the rooms we're not sitting in, including pushing air down the walls to be drawn away by the return vent.  Based on the displacement ventilation I guess we don't really need to forcably mix the air as such, we just need to make sure the air is pushed down, then as the warmer air is drawn across the room it should naturally mix.

 

I think the only decisions left for my system are the size of the diffusers (Blizzard said 200mm but I might like to go larger to make them quieter) and the location of the indoor unit and ductwork. I just have to get Blizzard to come out to have a chat about the design. Do you have any experience with diffuser size with regards to noise and air mixing?

 

 

You are on the right track.  What I would suggest is using a vent that is doing a jet of air downwards -- you want it to reach the floor.  That creates nice vortices that mix all of the air in the room from floor to ceiling.  The vortices spread out very quickly, so if you place it correctly, you will barely notice it unless you are directly under it.  Without any obstructions to cause noise, these open vents can carry a large amount of flow quietly.  You can direct the eyeball towards the base of a wall or corner so it doesn't disturb you much.  The smaller the hole size the more intense the jet of air.  For 5m ceilings, I had the full 100mm duct going into an 90mm vent, so the exit velocity was probably on the order of 10 m/s at high speed (thermostat controlled the fan at either low or high).  You could stand under it and vaguely feel the air flow -- it dissipates that quickly.  With 2.4m to 3m ceilings you would look like a dog sticking its head out of the car window if you stood under the vent with the same 10 m/s velocity.  This is what the vents looked like.

 

 

Your duct velocity is probably on the order of 1 m/s and you probably don't want to go above 2 m/s for the vent exit speed.  If you can tolerate the looks, something along the lines of this is ideal as you can point it away from where you are sitting to direct the flow.

 

 

You can playing around with cardboard to see how it might work before investing in new vents.


Paul1977

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  #2723753 10-Jun-2021 15:15
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We have 200mm round Eco vents in the two smaller bedrooms, and 250mm in master bedroom and media room (all 2.4m ceiling). In areas with higher stud we have nicer looking slim rectangular ones with adjustable louvres, which we have pretty much pointing straight down. These are placed away from seating etc.

 

I think our two returns have 500mm ducting, and I believe some of the supply ducting is 500mm in the roof before branching off or reducing to a smaller diameter closer to the vents (but I might be mistaken about that).

 

The heat loss side of it is still confusing to me. A larger diameter duct has less surface area per litre of air it carries, but the air is moving slower so has more time to lose heat. So which is better, bigger or smaller?

 

I suspect our design is actually pretty good and should work well (from my limited knowledge), it’s just been frustrating that it doesn’t seem to be performing as well as it expected. Hopefully in the end it will be really good once everything’s sorted. 


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  #2723755 10-Jun-2021 15:24
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@TechE2020 I purchased an anemometer to help calibrate the system myself - not as good as measuring flow volume but good enough to help me work things out with relative speeds. Both our lounge ducts were about 3m/s, with out bedroom speeds more like 1 - 1.5m/s. The bedroom ducts were between silent and quiet, and straightening the ducts in the ceiling made a HUGE different to noise levels.

 

Standing under the 3m/s lounge duct with the center diffuser removed in the column of air it felt like you were in a waterfall of air - like being in a car with your hand out the window but not at high speed - 50kph maybe. The air column went from the ceiling to the floor and didn't really spread out. Centre out was more effective than the air going across the ceiling, but not quite right. The downjet you used would be about the same, maybe even more focused. Hence needing to spread the air out and direct it away, using the square directional diffuser. Hopefully it works because once that's in putting a round diffuser back in would be quite difficult.

 

My estimate of the volume of air through each diffuser in the lounge is 200L/s, 466cfm, 720m3/h (according to a quick calculator - L/s is accurate). The spec sheet for 2 way blow (we might use 2, 3 or 4) looks to me like we might want 250mm rather than 200mm. Hard to read though.


RunningMan
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  #2723760 10-Jun-2021 15:33
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@Paul1977 those diffusers can also be locked in the hot or cold position (centre holes open or shut) by pushing the small lever all the way to one side until it clicks. If you swap it over for summer/winter (hot air down, cool air across) then you shouldn't get any clicking as the mechanism moves with temperature.


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