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Terciops
26 posts

Geek


  #3294691 8-Oct-2024 15:22
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Just a quick update as this thread is appropriate :

 

Here are some details from the next firmware build of Paladin (V7xx) that some may find interesting.   Don't get too excited though, it will be the end of the year at earliest, but will be fully compatible with V695 firmware and hardware.  None of this really applies to non-battery installations, so interest only for you folks. 

 

OK, so one of the most annoying problems I have identified, with my V695 build - and it applies to many, is that when on full battery support my inverter is only capable of 2.5kW of output.  If I draw any more than that then the balance comes from either solar, if there is sufficient, or the grid.  But my HW element is 3kW, so even without a house load I am always going to be hit with some grid input during a top up without some solar available.  Not the end of the world perhaps, but definitely annoying.  The obvious answer is to fit a smaller element, but how small? and what about transfers - they will then be restricted to element size.

 

So all that follows is about top ups only.  Either forced by minimum temperature or Legionnaire's, or manually by the top switch.  Transfer / Diversion is not affected.

 

So I wanted what is effectively a Virtual Element (VE) that could be set to any wattage up to the physical value of the physical element.  I also wanted to introduce a much slower and steadier ramp up (and down) of power to allow the inverter to keep up.  A sudden surge in power is never captured that well by any inverter I have experience of, so a slower ramp up would allow the inverter time to adjust in tandem if you will.

 

The code to do this was superficially quite long and CPU intensive in terms of limiting Paladin's grid measuring cadence, so a suitably elegant and speedy solution was a good while in creation.  As is often the case in these things, the answer came eventually and it is actually rather simple once you get the idea minimised to its' basics.

 

Anyway, Paladin now has a selectable VE that will maintain the selected wattage on a top up and ramp up in 30 secs to VE power.   The next item was what to do about excess solar during a top up.  If I stayed to that selected VE then excess solar would be exported, not at all ideal.  But that was solved as well using a second positive feedback loop comparing actual transfer with a meld of selected VE and exported watts.

 

Now what happened if there was an increase in house load during a top up and the sum of house load and VE exceeded inverter output.  A slight modification of the feedback loop solves that as well by pulling down the VE value until the house load reduces, allowing the inverter to carry the load without grid activity.  

 

The final hurdle was what would happen if you wanted to use full element wattage for a rapid top up regardless.  I have provisionally covered that by dumping the overnight boost on the LH switch poition and making that an 'emergency boost' at full wattage all the way to maximum temp, or until the switch is returned to the centre.  I say provisional because the jury is still out on whether that should be to maximum temp or just to selected minimum.  My gut feeling is that as this is essentially a manual over-ride, it might as well be to maximum temp as the user can turn it off as required.  This will also be useful for those with a free power period in their plan.

 

Finally, while all this was being crafted, I realised that this method allowed me to fully implement a feature that had been available, but somewhat clunky on the existing software, for forcing a fixed export wattage and allowing the remaining power to the HW element.  This was actually easy as it uses an almost identical method to the VE concept. 

 

I am presently modifying the serial port API to accommodate these changes so that those with a bent for HA and the like can hack these extra features as they feel the need.  Then I can get this version on my wall and try it all in real life.


RobDickinson
1524 posts

Uber Geek


  #3294706 8-Oct-2024 15:44
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SumnerBoy:

 

Yes. Am interested to know if you see any issues with your system, i.e. dedicated diverter plus the PW. They are both closed loop systems trying to balance the grid feed to zero. In my experience this caused issues (as detailed above).

 

 

The PW will take precedence over solar production and I will only trigger the diverter when I am exporting power ( i.e. pw full or maxed out, and my home use lower than production etc).

 

If it doesnt get enough solar skimmed off the top there it will automatically boost over night and that will use the PW stored power.

 

Not sure what issues it will have. It will use excess solar I would otherwise export (or loose) or PW stored energy. It might use grid if I am out of that.


  #3294709 8-Oct-2024 15:47
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SumnerBoy:

 

I have had a PW2 for the last 12 months and until recently had a DIY PV diverter heating my HWC. However due to the way the PW and diverter are both closed loop systems trying to "soak up" excess PV they had a tendancy to interfere with one another.

 

They both had a CT clamp around the grid supply but the HWC was "inside" the house load. This meant that if the diverter detected "export" to the grid it would turn on the HWC and wait till the grid supply changed to "import", when it would switch off the HWC. The problem was that the PW would detect the HWC load and if it exceeded whatever was being generated by solar, it would start discharging the battery to ensure zero grid "import". So the diverter would never see the grid supply change to "import" and it would just leave the HWC on, draining the battery.

 

It didn't always do this, since sometimes the PW would be a little slow to detect the switch and thus the diverter would successfully turn off the HWC, but it was not a very effective system.

 

 

This is what I was talking about. If you don't see any issues then great, perhaps your diverter works a little differently than my original one did.


RobDickinson
1524 posts

Uber Geek


  #3294711 8-Oct-2024 15:55
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"The problem was that the PW would detect the HWC load and if it exceeded whatever was being generated by solar"

 

Thats not how the green catch works, it diverts excess solar, however much that is (after the PW and home use). 


  #3294718 8-Oct-2024 16:03
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RobDickinson:

 

Thats not how the green catch works, it diverts excess solar, however much that is (after the PW and home use). 

 

 

Presumably it does that by adding a CT clamp around the grid supply? Which is what the PW gateway does also.

 

So the PW is charging/discharging the battery (depending on your PW config and the time of day) to ensure the grid supply is as close to zero as possible - i.e. no import and no export.

 

But the Green Catch is trying to do something similar, although only in one direction. If it detects any grid "export" it will switch the HWC load on until it detects grid "import" and then shut the HWC load off.

 

The issue I was seeing was that neither system is perfect at maintaining this balance. So occasionally the PW would allow a little bit to "export" to the grid, while it was still charging. The diverter would see this and turn on the HWC load. So then the HWC load is on and drawing 3kW. If the HWC + house load exceeded the solar generation, the PW would attempt to make up the shortfall by discharging the battery. As long as it was effective in doing this, the diverter would never see the grid supply flick back to "import" so the HWC would remain on, with the PW being used to cover any shortfall.

 

It is because both the diverter and PW are "closed loop" systems - measuring at the same point, and trying to balance to zero. They interfere with one another and cause unexpected and unpredictable results.

 

I hope that explanation makes sense?!


RobDickinson
1524 posts

Uber Geek


  #3294724 8-Oct-2024 16:12
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The green catch doesnt 'switch on' the element as such it diverts excess power which may not be 100% of the elements capability. It'll only divert 3kw if I have 3kw excess after the pw and house use.


  #3294727 8-Oct-2024 16:25
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I don't think it makes any difference - the fact is they are two closed loop systems running at the same time on the same control signal (grid supply import/export). But hopefully I am wrong and it works fine for you. 


  #3294728 8-Oct-2024 16:36
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For the green catch if you follow this you should be fine, should be the last CT before the grid.

 

https://www.catchpower.com.au/_files/ugd/cfbb6e_a7fc62fd07c34394af2491046d6c20c0.pdf 


  #3294729 8-Oct-2024 16:39
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Yep that is spot on Jase - thanks for that link! If the HWC load is "outside" of the load that the PW is monitoring, then it will work ok. Because the PW won't "see" that load and thus it won't be trying to balance it with the grid supply to zero.

 

...I think.


  #3294733 8-Oct-2024 16:56
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SumnerBoy:

 

Yep that is spot on Jase - thanks for that link! If the HWC load is "outside" of the load that the PW is monitoring, then it will work ok. Because the PW won't "see" that load and thus it won't be trying to balance it with the grid supply to zero.

 

...I think.

 

 

Thats how i understand it too


Terciops
26 posts

Geek


  #3294792 8-Oct-2024 18:12
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A dedicated Diverter is not a problem with a battery inverter as long as you tell the diverter to ignore the first 100W or so of the export.  Otherwise they will fight and collide like two fielders going for the ball at the boundary.

A diverter will work much faster than any inverter control and always tend to win, so unless you allow that leakage for the inverter to play with you will end up diverting from the battery.  Which is definitely not a good thing.  

 

 

 

 


HarmLessSolutions
969 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

  #3294840 8-Oct-2024 18:31
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Terciops:

 

A dedicated Diverter is not a problem with a battery inverter as long as you tell the diverter to ignore the first 100W or so of the export.  Otherwise they will fight and collide like two fielders going for the ball at the boundary.

A diverter will work much faster than any inverter control and always tend to win, so unless you allow that leakage for the inverter to play with you will end up diverting from the battery.  Which is definitely not a good thing.  

 

 

That's the behaviour we have seen with our Paladin and Evnex EVSE both working on their respective diversion strategies. The Paladin's immediacy sees it getting first dibs on solar going to export as the Evnex's lagginess (combined with EV switching delay) results in it having to wait for the export to either reach it's 1.4kW threshold either over and above the Paladin's consumption, or once the HWC reaches temperature.





https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/


Terciops
26 posts

Geek


  #3296369 12-Oct-2024 09:52
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HarmLessSolutions:

 

That's the behaviour we have seen with our Paladin and Evnex EVSE both working on their respective diversion strategies. The Paladin's immediacy sees it getting first dibs on solar going to export as the Evnex's lagginess (combined with EV switching delay) results in it having to wait for the export to either reach it's 1.4kW threshold either over and above the Paladin's consumption, or once the HWC reaches temperature.

 

 

If you want to prioritise that EV charge, try this :

Put Paladin's dipswitch 1 ON (which will allow a nominal 100W buffer before diversion).  Paladin OFF / Open Case / Set Dipswitch / Paladin ON.

Leave Paladin OFF and start the charger.  Unfortunately you will have to wait for the 1.4kW excess to do this .

 

Once the charger starts,  put Paladin back ON to mop up any excess over and above the charger load.

Depending on the charger logic, this may well give you a solution and the best of both worlds.

 

 

 

 

 

 


  #3297134 14-Oct-2024 11:20
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Terciops:

 

If you want to prioritise that EV charge, try this :

 

 

Do you have to do this each time you want to prioritise the EV charger? 


LightbulbNeil
57 posts

Master Geek


  #3299128 20-Oct-2024 08:03
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Does anyone have an electric califont instant hotwater ?
Just planning ahead for when our current gas one gives out.

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